D&D 5E adventurers in your world: common or rare?

[Mephista]

Caster level is not class level as you well know.

In many cases, it very much can be. An NPC wizard type is going to have caster level = character level. Its not universal, but it does have impact.

As well, you can actually reverse engineer many humanoid's level by noting their HP and Proficency bonus. They do line up with how PCs level.

So, while monsters don't exactly have a statistic that say "level 5", you can bet that a level 5 spell caster will have 5dX worth of hp averaged out, and a proficency bonus equal to a level 5 pc wizard. If you have an NPC with what looks like a humanoid, and Extra Attack? There will be at least 5dX hp and appropriate proficency level.

I first noticed this trend when I saw the half-dragon, and was complaining about its dragonbreath being so much better than a dragonborn's. Then, out of morbid curiosity, I tried to reverse engineer the rest of its stats to see how much better than an equivalent dragonborn it would be, and was shocked to find it roughly leveled to the same abilities and saves and hp as a 5th level Fighter. Shocked, I tell you. I checked a few others. Not all of them, but enough that I can say its definitely a trend for humanoid npcs.

 

[steeldragons]

The question must also be posed...what classes are we talking about here?

Again, this is a setting by setting thing with no real answer. I would say, for most fantasy worlds, the level of Fighters and Rogues above 10th or 12th level would, by FAR, exceed the number of Clerics and Mages. Rulers, generals of rulers, captains of guards and leaders of cavalries, guildmasters, "private contractor" rogues, known and feared villains, infamous heroes. At low to middling levels, basically any and every realm is going to be riddled with thieves and people who defend (or conquer) and act as military.

Even in most "high fantasy" worlds with "common-ish" magic/sorcery, those who actually use/practice magic are not the majority of the world's movers and shakers...even if they are of a power level to move and shake the entire world.

 

[S'mon]

In many cases, it very much can be. An NPC wizard type is going to have caster level = character level. Its not universal, but it does have impact.

As well, you can actually reverse engineer many humanoid's level by noting their HP and Proficency bonus. They do line up with how PCs level.

So, while monsters don't exactly have a statistic that say "level 5", you can bet that a level 5 spell caster will have 5dX worth of hp averaged out, and a proficency bonus equal to a level 5 pc wizard.

That's not true at all. PBs are based off CR and are almost always lower (CR 8 Assassin is the
only one I can think of that might be equivalent). The Archmage is an
18th level caster with 18d8, CR 12 with PB +4, not the +6 a PC Wiz-18 would have. The CR 5
gladiator with 15d8 somewhat resembles a Ftr-11 in hp & DPR, but is CR 5 with PB+3.

Even caster hp & hd often don't match - CR 2 priest has 5d8 and casts as Clr-5 with PB+2 but acolyte has 2d8 and casts as Clr-1, CR 2 Druid has 5d8 but casts as Drd-4, CR 2 cult fanatic has 6d8, but casts as Clr-4 and gets 2 dagger
attacks.

NPCs are built like monsters, not PCs.

 

[S'mon]

If you have an NPC with what looks like a humanoid, and Extra Attack? There will be at least 5dX hp and appropriate proficency level.

Again no. Scout has 3d8 and makes 2 melee or missile attacks. CR 1/2 PB+2.

 

[clearstream]

BTW what level are you GMing at Vonklaude? I would recommend you avoid theorycrafting away from actual play unless you really enjoy it as a pastime in itself.

Indeed. I am speaking both from expertise and experience. Giving more hp or more damage does not make for as interesting a narrative as running their actual features. Often in surprising ways. There is always a temptation to fudge at high-level due to the increase in complexity. I once tried transitioning high-level D&D characters to a "diceless" system and we found it unsatisfying. Which was unexpected seeing as we were using a system I'd designed that many players had found fascinating for years. Apparently, part of our engagement with D&D is due to the mechanics.

 

[clearstream]

Why? How so? If you are going to have an encounter happen...if the PCs are walking up to someone to talk to or fight a classed NPC...I [the DM] need to know what level they are. What their available features and abilities are...saying "tier 1: levels 1-5 [or whatever it is]" does not actually "help" me or make things "quicker." I need to figure out, or at least be able to look up, what the given NPC can do.

I'll leave it to you to figure out why these sorts of guides are useful. You own a copy of the DMG, right? I wonder how big Xanathar's guild could be?

I guess I just don't see how using "tiers" vs. "levels" is any more (or less) a useful guideline for DMs. Just a matter of DMing style and play preference from what I can tell. Nor that anyone here is "agreeing" with you about tiers any moreso than any other system for doing this they like.

Deplorably, I do not contribute on forums in order to earn the agreement of other contributors. I suspect anyone who does is in for disappointment That said, from experience in simulating the real world, I've learned to respect accuracy over precision. I think if I assert that there are 1000 Level 4 PCs, then that is very precise, but it probably has low accuracy. If I say instead that I think there are 2000 PCs between levels 1 and 4, that is less precise, but probably more accurate. More times, it will turn out to be right. It would be better still to say, I think there are from 1000 to 3000 PCs between levels 1 and 4, but that feels a bit harder to work with. Steve McConnell pointed out that if you are asked to estimate the length of the Amazon River, then your answer should at least include the correct value.

Ooooh. <hastily gathers up valuables>

It's been lovely chatting with you. <Grabs a packaged bright yellow suit. You notice the bio-hazard symbol stamp on top. Makes way to a sturdy looking steel reinforced door.>

I'm sure we'll have loads of fun times to come. <Wrenches the apparently very heavy door open. Pauses in the doorway.>

<Turns and smiles at you, nervously.> I'm sure it wasn't intentional. Cheerio! <ducks into bunker and seals door. You hear multiple clicks and whirring sounds as what you presume to be various locking mechanisms engage>

Fear not when the mechanical conversation turns technical. Put more simply, any good simulation should output results consistent with what you observe. For instance, a rule of thumb that there are "no more than one handful of high tier character class NPCs" is in essence a simulation. It asserts that there will be 0-5 such characters. Is that output consistent with the baseline D&D world? It isn't, and therefore it fails the most basic test.

 

[S'mon]

Indeed. I am speaking both from expertise and experience.

And humility too!

But I was wondering specifically have you GM'd 5e up through 20th level, and if so how did you find the power balance at Tier IV (or Epic if using the DMG Epic Boons system)?

I have one fairly optimised group at 12-14 and characters up to 18th in another campaign, and I've never experienced any issues with challenging their characters. I've generally avoided most 5e PC-class
powers as I think the majority don't work all that well for NPCs and are experienced by players pretty much as just more hp/damage, if noticeable at all. Feats are something that can lend a nice distinctiveness to NPCs though. Generally speaking 4e design principles work best for distinctive enemies - a limited number of signature abilities.

 

[S'mon]

Deplorably, I do not contribute on forums in order to earn the agreement of other contributors.

What's your goal?

 

[clearstream]

What's your goal?

Principally, my goal is to solve problems for my campaign. I value the input of other DM's and players in doing that. I don't seek consensus, I seek critique: fortunately that is available in abundance. Where I have landed on this specific question is 1/100 baseline, and an order of magnitude fewer per tier. That is a very simple rule that produces numbers that feel credible for the baseline D&D world.

[Redacted] Let me simply say that if you want to insinuate some greater authority, then that doesn't wash with me. For me, good etiquette on these boards is to value the comments of others on face value. If what I propose works for you - great - if not, that's fine too. I'm much more curious about your "generally avoided" comment: when have you not avoided? Why?

 

[S'mon]

Principally, my goal is to solve problems for my campaign. I value the input of other DM's and players in doing that. I don't seek consensus, I seek critique: fortunately that is available in abundance. Where I have landed on this specific question is 1/100 baseline, and an order of magnitude fewer per tier. That is a very simple rule that produces numbers that feel credible for the baseline D&D world.

Players in my current 5e campaign are low-tier and progressing upwards. I have played 5e through mid-tier. I'm looking forward to high-tier and epic. I base my concepts for those tiers on my 3.5 campaigns. When I say experience and expertise, I work as a professional game designer. I've won awards for both design and DMing. If you want to insinuate some greater authority, then that doesn't wash with me. For me, good etiquette on these boards is to value the comments of others on face value. That is because anyone can say what they like here: maybe you have a group of high-tier characters, maybe you don't. There's no way to prove such claims and I believe it insults the community to revert to them. Apologies if I speak frankly, but that is how I feel about it.

I could actually prove it - my Wilderlands text-chat game is all logged and I can PM session logs on request, highest level PC has played 114 sessions. My Varisia game has session accounts here http://smonscurseofthecrimsonthrone.blogspot.co.uk/ but they don't prove exact levels I guess although player session accounts often mention XP - they do show we've played 51 sessions on the main current campaign so unsurprising that highest PC is 14th.

I wasn't doubting you, but as I suspected you are taking experience from high level Pathfinder and assuming 5e works the same - it doesn't. Power progression at levels 11-20 is far more nuanced than in Pathfinder or 3e. I wouldn't necessarily have known that before GMing to high level. I guess I'm "insinuating some greater
authority" (LOL) in that I have more 5e GMing experience than you so you might consider my POV. In my experience there's no substitute for experience!

_______________

Here's the highest level PC in my Wilderlands game - sorry it's messy but you should get the idea.

Hakeem Grey-Wolf, Exhalted Champion of Bondorr, Sword Knight of Bondorr, War Chief of Greywolf, Altanian Human Barbarian

Altanian Barbarian Level 18 (Proficiency +6)

Armour Class: AC 22 in Armour of Bondorr, or 20 (10 +2 DEX +5 CON +3 for +1 shield), Defence Class: DC 16 (8+2 DEX+6 Prof) .Move: 40' when not in heavy armour. Jump 20'.

ST: 20 (+5) IQ: 10 (+0) WI: 10 (+0) DE: 14 (+2) CO: 20 (+5) CH: 13 (+1)

Hit Points: 221 (17 + 12x17) Healing Dice: 18 (11 hp/d12+5), recover 9/day.Persistent Rage Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends early only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.Indomitable Might (18th level) Always minimum result of 20 on all STR checks (eg Athletics rolls, jumps, grapples, bullrushes, climbing etc) - not attacks or saves.
Bloodletter +2 Longsword (2 Attacks/Action) Attack +13 (+6 Prof +5 STR +2 magic) damage 1d8+11 1-hand raging (+5 STR +2 magic +4 rage), critical hit 5d8+11, rage 6/day. At Thusia.Wolfshead +1 Longsword, Werebane: +3d6 dmg vs Lycanthropes. At Thusia.
Retaliation: Starting at 14th level, when you take damage from a creature that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.Relentless Rage: Starting at 11th level, your rage can keep you fighting despite grievous wounds. If you drop to 0 hit points while you’re raging and don’t die outright, you can make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you succeed, you drop to 1 hit point instead. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.

Equipment: Great sword, wolf skin, loin cloth, belt and money pouch, adventurers pack, silver lightning-bolt pendant - the symbol of Bondorr, Sword God of Altanis, it shows Hakeem's dedication to the mystic Way of the Sword.
+1 wolfshead longsword, werebane (+3d6 dmg vs lycanthropes). - at Thusia.Bloodletter, +2 longsword. Altanian Warrior: +2 to Survival/Tracking (+4 Prof -1 WIS =+3).SA: L1 Rage as Bonus Action (5/day): +4 dmg, dmg resistance to pierce/slash/bludgeon, advantage on STR checks. L1 Unarmoured defence, add Con mod to AC. L2 Reckless attack (get Advantage on attack, grant Advantage). L2 Danger Sense - advantage on DEX saves vs all visible effects. L3 Primal Path: Berserker. When raging can go Berserk, bonus action attack 1/round after the round he enters rage. When berserk rage ends he suffer 1 level of exhaustion. Exhaustion: Level 1 gives disadvantage on ability checks (not attacks & saves). Level 2 halves your speed. Level 3 gives disadvantage on attacks & saves. Altanian Barbarians can recover 1 level of exhaustion with a Short Rest 3/day.L5 Extra Attack. Fast Movement 40'. L6 Mindless Rage - Cannot Be Charmed or Frightened While Raging. Any existing Charm/Fright is suspended for the duration of the Rage.L7 Feral Instinct: Advantage on all Init rolls. If Surprised he can still roll init & can act normally if he enters Rage before doing anything else.L9 Brutal Critical +1 die on critical hitsL10 Intimidating Presence - action to frighten one target within 30', WIS save DC (8+Prof+CHA) 13 or be frightened until end of your next turn (if saves, immune for 24 hrs). You can spend action to extend effect on subsequent turns. L11 Relentless Rage (DC 10 CON save to stay at 1 hp).L12 Brutal Critical (2 dice)
Weapon:

Sword of Bondorr: +3 Dragonbane Longsword, +3d6 vs Draconics: (2 Attacks/Action) Attack +14 (+6 Prof +5 STR +3 magic) damage 1d8+12 1-hand raging (+5 STR +3 magic +4 rage), critical hit 5d8+12 (34), +3d6 damage vs Draconics, rage 6/day. An Exhalted Champion of Bondorr can cast a 14d6 (49 damage) lightning bolt from the sword as a bonus action 1/day. If a lightning storm is raging overhead this damage is maximised (84 damage).Lightning Sheath: As a bonus action the wielder can cause the Sword of Bondorr to crackle with lightning for 1 minute. This sheds bright light 20' & dim light another 20'. It does +1d8 lightning damage on a hit.


Weapon: Kalthalax the Demonslayer, intelligent +1 Greatsword (2 Attacks/Action) Attack: +8 (+3 prof +4 STR +1 magic) Dam: 14 (2d6 +7) (inc +2 for Rage), Bane Weapon: damage 21 (4d6+7) vs all Infernal/Aberrant/Fey. Advantage & Resistance vs Infernal, Aberrant & Fey Magic. Requires Bonding/Atunement for full powers - returned to Lich Clevenus.MI: Boots of Striding & Springing (x3 vertical & horizontal jump range), Armour of Bondorr: +3 breastplate AC 17 or half plate AC 18 with 5000gp Resurrection diamond; returns wearer to dedicated or nearest Shrine of Bondorr on death and casts Resurrection on him, consuming the diamond. The Armour grants an Exhalted Champion of Bondorr Magic Resistance (advantage on saves vs magic), Immunity to Lightning (no damage), and Resistance to Acid damage (half damage).