D&D 2E Changes to 2e from other editions?

[Dorian_Grey]

Hey Everyone!

So in my 2e games, we always made some basic changes out of the gate. We usually got rid of class restrictions and also simplified experience tables so everyone was on the same exp table. Both of those changes made it into 3rd edition and are still around in 5th, and I know the reason the change was made was because TSR/WotC could see the writing on the wall about it. Heck, the gates were opened in the Complete handbooks with demihuman kits. We even did what the DMG recommended and boosted humans up.

So what I'd like to know is, if you play both 2e and later editions (3rd, 4th or 5th) what from those editions would you like to pull or have pulled into your 2e game? Has anyone tried advantage/disadvantage in 2e for example? I'm curious!

 

[cbwjm]

Out of curiosity, did you change up the classes in any way when you simplified the XP tables?

I was thinking about 2e a few weeks and I'm not sure how much I would bring in from later editions that I didn't already have while playing 2e (or at least thought about when playing). Things I would have if going back to 2e would be the following with NEW besides the items that I'd bring in from later/other editions. Everything else I was already using.

Bonus spells for wizard based off the cleric bonus spells from high wisdom but using intelligence instead.

NEW Spell repertoire from ACKs but more flexible. I'd allow spellcasters to have a number of spells of each level prepared (1 per spell slot of that level, +1/spell level for Int 13-15, +2/spell level for Int 16+). I'd allow them more flexibility in changing them. This would be kind of a cross between spell preparation of 5e and the ACKs spell repertoire.

Expanded race/class choice. I'd probably do away with them altogether. If players want that dwarven wizard then I'd be fine with them playing a dwarven wizard.

NEW Multiclass PCs taken from castles and crusades:
1. Combined XP table of all classes. An elven fighter/mage would need 4500 xp to reach level 2 instead of becoming a fighter 2/mage 1 at 4000xp.
2. Single hit die. Since they level up their classes at the same time I would use the closest average hit die, rounded down. A fighter/mage would use d6 for hit dice. Mind you, since you are levelling up at once, rolling all hit dice and then averaging the result wouldn't be much of an issue.
3. If using level limits, then the lowest level limit is used, but...

No level limits. We pretty much never saw them while playing since we never hit those high levels and the campaign with the highest PCs were human anyway.

NEW: Spell failure chance and concentration. I would definitely bring these in. If a fighter/mage wears armour then they can still cast spells but there is a chance that spell would fail (don't want them to have all the benefits) elven chain would still be a coveted item for a fighter-mage. If a spellcaster is hit while casting a spell then they can make a concentration check which would likely be a constitution check or system shock roll or something. I'd have to think on it.

 

[JonnyP71]

I would do things the other way around - pull stuff from 1E into 5E.... such as class/race restrictions and irregular experience tables - both of which are things I like.

 

[Dorian_Grey]

Out of curiosity, did you change up the classes in any way when you simplified the XP tables?

No. A lot of people complain about class balance but our group never had an issue with the balance. We came at the game collectively, characters gaining powers were seen as wins and benefits for everyone - not just the individual player. I typically played a fighter - and often was excited by new spell selection for wizards because I'd work that in to my tactics and strategies. My goal was always a keep and building my own army, and the wizard player was always excited because if I rolled well, then I'd be able to provide excellent bodyguards.

Eventually we did come up with a new system of Fast, Regular, Slow, Very Slow. This was due to two issues: a multiclass player who was playing an elf fighter/wizard and another player who was playing a gully dwarf and wanted to be a Paladin. For the multiclass player they were just obnoxious. We eventually asked them to leave, but the result was that we made multiclass characters advance on the slow table. The player who wanted to play a gully dwarf paladin didn't have anywhere near the stats, but we allowed it - using the very slow column. Fast was rogue I think, regular was cleric, slow was fighter, and very slow was wizard.

I was thinking about 2e a few weeks and I'm not sure how much I would bring in from later editions that I didn't already have while playing 2e (or at least thought about when playing). Things I would have if going back to 2e would be the following with NEW besides the items that I'd bring in from later/other editions. Everything else I was already using.

Bonus spells for wizard based off the cleric bonus spells from high wisdom but using intelligence instead.

NEW Spell repertoire from ACKs but more flexible. I'd allow spellcasters to have a number of spells of each level prepared (1 per spell slot of that level, +1/spell level for Int 13-15, +2/spell level for Int 16+). I'd allow them more flexibility in changing them. This would be kind of a cross between spell preparation of 5e and the ACKs spell repertoire.

Expanded race/class choice. I'd probably do away with them altogether. If players want that dwarven wizard then I'd be fine with them playing a dwarven wizard.

NEW Multiclass PCs taken from castles and crusades:
1. Combined XP table of all classes. An elven fighter/mage would need 4500 xp to reach level 2 instead of becoming a fighter 2/mage 1 at 4000xp.
2. Single hit die. Since they level up their classes at the same time I would use the closest average hit die, rounded down. A fighter/mage would use d6 for hit dice. Mind you, since you are levelling up at once, rolling all hit dice and then averaging the result wouldn't be much of an issue.
3. If using level limits, then the lowest level limit is used, but...

No level limits. We pretty much never saw them while playing since we never hit those high levels and the campaign with the highest PCs were human anyway.

NEW: Spell failure chance and concentration. I would definitely bring these in. If a fighter/mage wears armour then they can still cast spells but there is a chance that spell would fail (don't want them to have all the benefits) elven chain would still be a coveted item for a fighter-mage. If a spellcaster is hit while casting a spell then they can make a concentration check which would likely be a constitution check or system shock roll or something. I'd have to think on it.

Interesting selection! As a note, for a spellcaster, being hit was an automatic disruption: "Furthermore, if the spellcaster is struck by a weapon or fails to make a saving throw before the spell is cast, the caster's concentration is disrupted. The spell is lost in a fizzle of useless energy and is wiped clean from the memory of the caster until it can be rememorized. Spellcasters are well advised not to stand at the front of any battle, at least if they want to be able to cast any spells!" PHB - Chapter 7, Casting Spells

Second edition did introduce Concentration in the PO: Spells & Magic as a nonweapon proficiency:

Concentration: A character with this talent has rigorously trained himself to ignore distractions of all kinds, deadening his mind to pain or sensation. This allows a wizard to ignore annoyances or disturbances that might otherwise interfere with the casting of a spell. In order to use this ability, the player must state that his character is concentrating when he begins to cast a spell. If the character is struck by an attack that causes 2 or less points of damage, he is permitted to attempt a proficiency check to ignore the distraction and continue to cast his spell (unless, of course, the damage is enough to render him unconscious.) The wizard can try to ignore grappling or restraining attacks that cause no damage but suffers a –4 penalty to his check. Spells that incapacitate without damaging, such as hold person or command, still interrupt the caster if he fails his saving throw.

A character using this ability must focus on the casting of his spell to the exclusion of all other activity, even direct attacks. Any Dexterity adjustment to his Armor Class is lost, and in addition flank or side attacks are treated as rear attacks, with a +2 bonus to hit instead of a +1.

But some good ideas!

 

[Dorian_Grey]

I would do things the other way around - pull stuff from 1E into 5E.... such as class/race restrictions and irregular experience tables - both of which are things I like.

There is a 5th edition rule set for Mystara which does exactly that!

 

[cbwjm]

No. A lot of people complain about class balance but our group never had an issue with the balance. We came at the game collectively, characters gaining powers were seen as wins and benefits for everyone - not just the individual player. I typically played a fighter - and often was excited by new spell selection for wizards because I'd work that in to my tactics and strategies. My goal was always a keep and building my own army, and the wizard player was always excited because if I rolled well, then I'd be able to provide excellent bodyguards.

Eventually we did come up with a new system of Fast, Regular, Slow, Very Slow. This was due to two issues: a multiclass player who was playing an elf fighter/wizard and another player who was playing a gully dwarf and wanted to be a Paladin. For the multiclass player they were just obnoxious. We eventually asked them to leave, but the result was that we made multiclass characters advance on the slow table. The player who wanted to play a gully dwarf paladin didn't have anywhere near the stats, but we allowed it - using the very slow column. Fast was rogue I think, regular was cleric, slow was fighter, and very slow was wizard.



Interesting selection! As a note, for a spellcaster, being hit was an automatic disruption: "Furthermore, if the spellcaster is struck by a weapon or fails to make a saving throw before the spell is cast, the caster's concentration is disrupted. The spell is lost in a fizzle of useless energy and is wiped clean from the memory of the caster until it can be rememorized. Spellcasters are well advised not to stand at the front of any battle, at least if they want to be able to cast any spells!" PHB - Chapter 7, Casting Spells

Second edition did introduce Concentration in the PO: Spells & Magic as a nonweapon proficiency:



But some good ideas!

That's interesting, I must have known about the concentration proficiency back before 3e came out but it has been a while since looking through those books. I guess I would be able to just use an expanded version of the concentration proficiency.

I like the idea of the XP tables. Having 4 and then distributing the classes between them, moving multiclassed characters up to the slowest or allowing PCs that don't have the minimum stats to still be the class but using a slower xp column is an interesting idea.

 

[Igwilly]

Honestly, I like things like race/class restriction and level limits. Demi-classes are fine, but I still need to see all the complete books.
Most of my changes will be about adding my personal touches: modern technology, gunblades, buster swords, Final Fantasy things are among the list. Changes to cosmology and some monsters are there too, together with my own fiends/celestials. Specific changes like some spells and magic items, but they are minor compared to the rest of the system. Some kits will be changed, too.
How I deal wishes, however, is not minor, and it will be an important part of the campaign. Also, I’m devising a system for calculating HP of multiclass characters – and only HP. I’ll try to use a lot of content from 2e edition, though, so some rulings will be necessary. I would love to add some new classes and kits created by myself but only time will tell.

 

[Igwilly]

Thinking a little more, there are some things which I would use from other editions:
4e's teleportation circles. D&D has underestimated teleport for far too long.
I woule use a modified version of 4e's dying rules.
Some classes. Especially 3e's Sorcerer, some psionic classes, Avenger and Warden perhaps.
A big part of 4e's cosmology can be present in my already stated changes.

Honestly, I think these changes are enough. If I try to change too much, it won't be worth the trouble. I'm a huge perfeccionist so, no matter the system, changes will happen. I've accepted that.

 

[therios]

We play both 2e and 3.5, and I dm the 2e games. We adopted nothing from 4th, but we have quite a few from 3x. We also got rid of level limits and give some advantages to humans instead, namely character point bonuses (we use the Player's Option books in our 2e games) to be used like the feat and skill point bonuses in 3x. We made some spells closer to 3x versions, like adding damage limits or saving throws to SoD's like Disintegrate and Sleep. We also utilised some ability score bonuses that was not present in core 2e, and even allowed a few 3x core feats for each class.

 

[Igwilly]

Honestly, this is only my personal opinion, but...
One thing I like about 2e's races is that humans are effectively neutral: no racial ability and all classes available. This is very useful because many times you just don't want that worry in your character: being a Paladin or Wizard is already enough. And it's great to have a neutral race so you can compare classes without that external factor.
Class and level limits based on races allow that.
I still have to buy the Player's Option books, but I don't think I'll use them That much. At least not in the player-driven way.