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D&D 5E Great Weapon Mastery - once more into the breach! (with math)

Yunru

Banned
Banned
I'm not sure where people are getting the Cleave being strong from?
Sure it's good when you get it, but that's 5% of the time normally, plus when you kill an enemy.
Yes, you can push that up with investment (+5% with Improved Critical, *1.9 with advantage), but even then that maxes out at 19%.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
The only problem with white room calculation is that it does not factor in the actions of the enemies.

The boosted GWM and SS can be disabled. When the enemy can boosts itself in AC, these feat now become "almost" useless. When you need an 18+ to hit because you took the penalty to hit to increase your dmg, you'll see that your dmg output is severly lessened.

Both feats are intended to shine against low ac, mob like opponents. The monsters that are the most hated at my table are the Hobgoblins and Orogs. Why? High AC mobs to which I sometimes add a shield. Trying to hit an orog with an AC 20 with a -5 penalty to hit can be really hard. Again I'll say that these two feats are unbalancing as you want them to be.

No, that's just relativizing, meant to dismiss any real concern.

In other words, that line of argument can be boiled down to "whatever the players do, the DM can counteract it"

While this is true, it also draws attention away from the discussion at hand.

Also, you're forgetting you simply don't use the feat when it isn't beneficial for you.

Unless all or most enemies have AC 18 your argument simply isn't relevant.

And if you feel compelled to increase AC to Orog levels in general, you are actually making a pretty compelling argument the feat *is* overpowered...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 



guachi

Hero
I'm not sure where people are getting the Cleave being strong from?
Sure it's good when you get it, but that's 5% of the time normally, plus when you kill an enemy.
Yes, you can push that up with investment (+5% with Improved Critical, *1.9 with advantage), but even then that maxes out at 19%.

From math.

Go do the math yourself if you don't believe it. Make some assumptions, do the math, and come back here and show your findings.

I'll wait.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
From math.

Go do the math yourself if you don't believe it. Make some assumptions, do the math, and come back here and show your findings.

I'll wait.

I'd rather leave that up to the ones claiming it's so great, burden of proof and all that.

I mean, I already gave the maths for a crit-trigger: 28.5% at maximum.

The "kill a creature" trigger? Yeah no, I'm not touching that with a barge pole. Between different HP enemies, the chance that your character is the one to get the killing blow, the nature of the encounter itself, etc? Far too many variables.
 

No, that's just relativizing, meant to dismiss any real concern.

In other words, that line of argument can be boiled down to "whatever the players do, the DM can counteract it"

While this is true, it also draws attention away from the discussion at hand.

Also, you're forgetting you simply don't use the feat when it isn't beneficial for you.

Of course you're right in there. But an ASI is always useful. GWM not always.

Unless all or most enemies have AC 18 your argument simply isn't relevant.

Of course they don't. Where would be the fun in that? The feat is there for something and it should stay relevant all game long. Not all enemies need a high AC. Only the front liners. Just like the players. Monsters can have their tank too you know?

And if you feel compelled to increase AC to Orog levels in general, you are actually making a pretty compelling argument the feat *is* overpowered...

Why would I do such a thing with every orogs? Variation is what makes D&D a great game. Monster stats are not fixed for all eternity. Monsters adapts, changes and can use shields or not. Maybe some of them have heavy crossbows. Maybe they have poisoned arrows? It all depends on what you feel about what you have to do to make the game interesting and the type of group that you have.

The whole point was not: Boost all monsters AC and you'll have no problems.
The point is: Make some changes once in while. Make the players sweat without going all out against only one type of play. Force your players to review their tactics every now and then. You will suddenly notice that some feats are making some strange appearences, like the sentinel feat or the shield master feat...

My point is still valid. These feats are as Over Powered as you let them to be. Not all orcs encounters need to be the same. You meet 12 orogs. Are they all standard? Are there some orc veterans among them? Could there be a priestess of Luthic hidden among them? Maybe there are one or two orogs veterans (use veteran stats, gladiator?) who knows? With many DM, it will be 12 normal orogs period. That is where some feat comes in with their big shoes. The more predictable an encounter is, the more these feats will look unbalanced.

Enemies retreating behind a corner to negate a sharp shooter isn't that hard to do. No modifications are required on the monsters stats to do that. Two front row hobgoblins using the defense options while their friends shoot the GWM down, or the GWM friends is also quite an acceptable tactic. It is also a nice way to negate any advantages the pc might had.

No, I don't feel compel to shut down the feat with artificial means since I see no problems with the feat. I just use some different tactics than what is written in the monster block to push the players to their limit.

In one battle the GWM will be cleaving through the enemies like a hot knife in butter, the next, he will struggle to simply get a hit. That is where the warlock/wizard/sorcerer will come in and say:"Fireball, anyone?"
 

Not so with GWM. The bonus action attack is still there and it's roughly as much extra damage with the bonus action attack as with the -5/+10 portion. If the armor is high enough you don't use the -5/+10 part. Your damage can't possibly be lower with GWM as without it. The minimum boost should be 10% or so.

Only if the analysis assumes you don't have any other use for your bonus action, i.e. initiating Rage, Polearm Master haft attack, Shield Master shove, Wrathful/Thunderous Smite, dual wielding, Cunning Action, etc.

GWM's bonus action attack is great for characters with a bad action economy--it makes it not quite as bad. It's not so great for characters who already fully exploit their action economy.
 

Ovarwa

Explorer
The real problem is that martial classes are way too good compared to spellcasters, and need to be nerfed hard rather than get feats that are better than half-decent.
 


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