D&D 5E Great Weapon Mastery - once more into the breach! (with math)

[hejtmane]

The real problem is that martial classes are way too good compared to spellcasters, and need to be nerfed hard rather than get feats that are better than half-decent.

Really at high levels while the fighter is banging on 1 creature they are saying that's not right when a wizard just dropped 40d6 in 4 locations with a 40foot radius and a 1 mile range but yea yea it is all melee

Oh and a tempest cleric doing max damage chain lighting once per long rest 80 damage a bolt joy because it leaps from the first target yea yea

Lets not even mention a scrolock

Feeblemind effectively turning someone into a vegetable for 30 days

 

[Hillsy7]

Really at high levels while the fighter is banging on 1 creature they are saying that's not right when a wizard just dropped 40d6 in 4 locations with a 40foot radius and a 1 mile range but yea yea it is all melee

Oh and a tempest cleric doing max damage chain lighting once per long rest 80 damage a bolt joy because it leaps from the first target yea yea

Lets not even mention a scrolock

Feeblemind effectively turning someone into a vegetable for 30 days

I think you missed the sarcasm......

 

[hejtmane]

I think you missed the sarcasm......

I did oops

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Harzel]

I haven't been motivated to do the work to really add anything to the topic, but it's always interesting to see the back and forth on this.

Just for the record, though, the quote is "unto the breach". If you're thinking of Henry V. As reported by Bill. I guess it's possible someone else said "into the breach". Maybe Henry actually did say "into the breach", and Bill just got it wrong. Idk. Not so important in the big scheme of things, but it always catches my eye.

 

[Yunru]

I haven't been motivated to do the work to really add anything to the topic, but it's always interesting to see the back and forth on this.

Just for the record, though, the quote is "unto the breach". If you're thinking of Henry V. As reported by Bill. I guess it's possible someone else said "into the breach". Maybe Henry actually did say "into the breach", and Bill just got it wrong. Idk. Not so important in the big scheme of things, but it always catches my eye.

Off the top of my head I believe one is Shakespeare and the other is Charge of the Light Brigade.

Edit: Nope, just unto and just Shakespeare.

 

[Ancalagon]

In any game with meaningful choices there will be best and worst choices. The goal is to have the best choices not be so much better than many of the other choices that they are the only reasonable choice.

Indeed, and it seems that the way forward is to tamp down the few egregious cases instead of buffing everything else

Anyway, in my game very few feats are allowed since my initial read on this forum showed that they - and multiclassing - were responsible for a lot of those OP builds...

 

[Ancalagon]

Only if the analysis assumes you don't have any other use for your bonus action, i.e. initiating Rage, Polearm Master haft attack, Shield Master shove, Wrathful/Thunderous Smite, dual wielding, Cunning Action, etc.

GWM's bonus action attack is great for characters with a bad action economy--it makes it not quite as bad. It's not so great for characters who already fully exploit their action economy.

Indeed. Once again, a bonus is considered without considering that the character without that bonus may have another bonus that is just as good... I keep pointing out this flaw in the analysis and it keeps coming up!

 

[Ancalagon]

No, numbers don't lie.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?553760-Repeatable-DPR-Kings

For and giggles, throw in a Vorpal blade to be real crazy.

It would be nice if you copy pasted the relevant math instead of making us re-read an entire thread. I glanced at it, couldn't find it, moved on.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

I think fighter-types almost need damage boosts to chew through the sheer number of hit points of even low CR beasties. Everything has about x2 the hp of my B/X, 1e, 2e expectations so PCs need to inflict twice as much damage as those editions to keep pace. GWM helps with that. Should it take a 10th level fighter 3 rounds to drop a CR2 ogre? Not in my game it shouldn't. Even a greatsword wielding warrior with the maximum sinewnyess of a 20 Strength has a significant chance of not dropping the 15hp orc in one hit (too tired at the moment to calculate the chances with GWF style, without it its like 16% to one-shot).

My particular problem with GWM is that the choice it engenders (whether to use it or not) is pretty-much a straight math calculation. There is nothing thematic about it, clever or tactically interesting. Use it against low-AC opponents with break point at various ACs, factoring in advantage and other perks as necessary. You work out a table for when its optimal for you and you're good. It adds nothing of interest to the game and doesn't change how your character plays. Obviously it has antecedents in BECMI's fighter's smash attack and 3e's power attack so its not a particular failing of 5e, but it does perpetuate uninspired design. At least you lost initiative with the smash attack, making it a more interesting decision.

 

[Horwath]

I have a dual-wielder that regularly out-damages a GWF.

1. Your DW prays better to RNG gods than GWF does.

2. Your GWF does somethning wrong all the times.