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D&D 5E Failing saves is...ok?

Tony Vargas

Legend
Yes, but they got melted off you pretty quick too.

You've said that this rule was obscure and unused in your circles.
Not entirely un-used, I'd pull it out. But then I liked obscure rules relative to most of the folks I played with back in the day. ;)

But magic items fared pretty well relative to normal items (it was hilarious when you'd pull out item saves, because PC'd wind up with few or no items of clothing surviving), and protection items got their bonus, so there'd be the chance to save, yourself, boosted by the protection item, then the item saving with it's own bonus even if you failed. And, of course, it wasn't like that happened with every save, only those the DM judged could damage the item...

Most other DMs, though, if they knew it was there at all they chose not to invoke it. (Unless someone had a helm of brilliance, some DMs lived for the day they'd cook one of those off...) The way the higher level game leaned on items to keep some classes relevant may have had something to do with it, too...


... buy, yeah, the point I'm making is about the numbers, that saves improved with level, dramatically, back in the day, and since then have not, even net gotten worse as you level. That the classic game was otherwise a mess that everyone played differently, I happily acknowledge - but that can't make me love it any less. ;)
 
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... buy, yeah, the point I'm making is about the numbers, that saves improved with level, dramatically, back in the day, and since then have not, even net gotten worse as you level. That the classic game was otherwise a mess that everyone played differently, I happily acknowledge - but that can't make me love it any less. ;)

All right. It's uncontroversial (AFAIK) to say that high-level 5E PCs will fail saves more often than high-level AD&D PCs. In fact I believe that's the premise of this thread.

It would be controversial to say that high-level 5E PCs suffer more from failed saves than high-level AD&D PCs. I believe you'd get a lot of pushback if you tried to defend that claim. The consequences to failed saves in 5E are pretty mild. At this point though it looks like no one on this thread is making that claim.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
So after the umpteenth iteration of "5e effects are mild" and "failing saves is interesting and fun", I decided to take a closer look at what monsters actually do to you.

Aboleth (Challenge 10): Wisdom save or be charmed until the aboleth dies or is on a different plane from the target. Charmed target is under the aboleth's control and can't take reactions. Whenever the charmed target takes damage, they can repeat the saving throw. No more than once every 24 hours, the target can also repeat the saving throw when it is at least more than one mile away from the aboleth.

Hm, so if you fail this save, and the aboleth keeps you nearby, you might never get to save again to regain control of your character. Sure that's both mild and fun. Next!

Banshee (Challenge 4): All other creatures within 30 feet of her that must hear her must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failure, a creature drops to 0 hit points.

Now this one I'll grant is "milder" than a straight up save or die, but an area effect that ignores hit points and can cause a TPK isn't all that fun to me, but to each their own.

Cambion (Challenge 4): One humanoid the cambion can see within 30 feet of it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be magically charmed for one day. The charmed target obeys the cambion's spoken commands. If the target suffers any harm from the cambion or another creature or receives a suicidal command from the cambion, the target can repeat the saving throw.

Not as bad as an Aboleth, since there is a time limit. But losing control of your character for a day, especially from a creature that can disguise itself as a random joe in a crowd, yeah that's "interesting all right. Next!

Carrion Crawler (Challenge 2): The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for 1 minute. Until this poison ends the target is paralyzed.

This effect is shared by several monsters. Basically it's Hold Person, except you make the saves at disadvantage. Yep, fun and interesting. Next!

Chuul (Challenge 4): see Carrion Crawler.

Cockatrice (Challenge 1/2): The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against being magically petrified. On a failed save the creature begins to turn to stone and is restrained. It must repeat the saving throw at the end of it's next turn. On a failure, the creature is petrified for 24 hours.

Petrification is a lot milder in 5e than most previous editions of the game. And the odds of turning to stone from a Cockatrice is pretty slim- it has to hit you with it's +3 to hit and you have to fail a DC 11 saving throw twice. But still, Challenge 1/2?? So you can face these things right off the bat, they can take you out of the picture for a day (or longer, if there's any enemies about who can do something dastardly to your stone form), you can run into multiple Cockatrices fairly quickly...and long before anyone has any way to deal with it. Next!

Dryad (Challenge 1): basically the same as the Cambion, but Challenge 1. I'd raise an eyebrow more at that, but you're not actually controlled, and Dryads traditionally won't abuse this effect the way I bet a Cambion would.

Spellcasting Enemies: felt the need to comment on these. Most spellcasting monsters can cast spells at a notably higher level than their Challenge (the worst offender I've found to date is the Illusionist from Dead in Thay who can cast Phantasmal Killer as a Challenge 3). A Challenge 7 who can cast 5th level spells? Perfectly fine. Fortunately, despite having access to higher level spell effects, which can get quite nasty, in 5e, it's more about the save DC than the effect- sure that Drow Mage can use Cloudkill, but it's only a DC of 14.

The effectiveness of bad guy spellcasters is highly variable, so it's hard to really comment on how dangerous failing saves against them is- it's highly dependent on their spell loadout, since not all spells are created equally, but spells are pretty much the nastiest things 5e can throw at you.

Even though I only got as far as "E" in the Monster Manual before I stopped caring, lol, the following things seem to be true:

*Nasty and un-fun penalties for failed saves do exist in 5e.
*Very high DC's for saves do exist in 5e.
*It's possible at some point for a player character to encounter a saving throw they cannot possibly make.
*However, the combination of extremely dangerous effects that have extremely high save DC's seems to be rare.
*On the other hand, there are extremely dangerous effects on low Challenge monsters, so it does become quite possible to face a trio of Banshees or a pack of Cockatrices at some point. Even a high saving throw can fail if tested enough.

The bottom line is, while some enemies are problematic in the extreme, I think a DM would have to go out of his way to employ them often, and a canny DM knows what the effect of such monsters can be on his or her game. I think that puts this discussion to rest, once it gets to the point of "a jerk/inexperienced DM could kill their party and suck all the fun out of D&D", because that's a problem with those kinds of DM's, and not the system's fault.

Also, some people LIKE playing D&D when you can die (or worse!) at any given moment. And it's perfectly ok for the system to support that kind of play.

Most of my experience with 5e is with public play, where you have less control over what enemies are used, and the adventure designers are happy to pick some of the more ridiculous enemies at times. In that environment, the intersection of dangerous effects + high DC's is a problem, but again, that's not really the system's fault.

I'd be happier with a game that puts less of a burden on the DM to not accidentally create "impossible" encounters, but that can happen in any system, no matter how well balanced.

Short and Sweet: highly dangerous enemies and stupidly high save DC's are a tool in the DM's arsenal in 5e. How fair and fun this can be is highly subjective to a given group's playstyle. I don't like it, but I fully acknowledge that it's only a problem if the DM makes it one, and you can't take the system to task for how it's tools are used.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
A first level fighter making a save vs a low-level caster's Hold Person might need to roll a 14. The same fighter making a save vs a highl-level caster's Hold Person, might need a natural 20. Take him up to 20th level, himself, nothing changes.
What is likely to happen is that the high-level fighter will not even succeed on rolling a 20.

If he shores up his Wisdom save, he's still likely to autofail his Charisma save. Or his Intelligence save. Or, for that matter, his Dexterity save.

Getting the advice "you can always shore up your bad saves is a deeply dissatifactory answer. No, you cannot - there simply are too many weak saves.

Not to mention that a save where you still make it on a 20 is fundamentally different - and much less frustrating - than an autofail save.

Let's not talk about saves you make on a 20 when the complaint is saves you need a 21 (or a 25!!) to make...



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CapnZapp

Legend
Again, if you choose to abandon bounded accuracy and use only high-level foes against a high-level party, that's on you as the adventure designer. That isn't 5E's fault. The guy who invented the term "bounded accuracy" said so.
.
He's talking about something completely different there.

It is you who subvert his message to mean DM's are to blame if using high CR foes.

That's absurd, irrelevant and misleading - all at once!

That BA allows mooks to remain (somewhat) relevant is a different issue. And in no way does it excuse the presence of "epic" save DCs that characters have literally zero chance of making.


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CapnZapp

Legend
So after the umpteenth iteration of "5e effects are mild" and "failing saves is interesting and fun", I decided to take a closer look at what monsters actually do to you.

Aboleth (Challenge 10): Wisdom save or be charmed until the aboleth dies or is on a different plane from the target. Charmed target is under the aboleth's control and can't take reactions. Whenever the charmed target takes damage, they can repeat the saving throw. No more than once every 24 hours, the target can also repeat the saving throw when it is at least more than one mile away from the aboleth.

Hm, so if you fail this save, and the aboleth keeps you nearby, you might never get to save again to regain control of your character. Sure that's both mild and fun. Next!

Banshee (Challenge 4): All other creatures within 30 feet of her that must hear her must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failure, a creature drops to 0 hit points.

Now this one I'll grant is "milder" than a straight up save or die, but an area effect that ignores hit points and can cause a TPK isn't all that fun to me, but to each their own.

Cambion (Challenge 4): One humanoid the cambion can see within 30 feet of it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be magically charmed for one day. The charmed target obeys the cambion's spoken commands. If the target suffers any harm from the cambion or another creature or receives a suicidal command from the cambion, the target can repeat the saving throw.

Not as bad as an Aboleth, since there is a time limit. But losing control of your character for a day, especially from a creature that can disguise itself as a random joe in a crowd, yeah that's "interesting all right. Next!

Carrion Crawler (Challenge 2): The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for 1 minute. Until this poison ends the target is paralyzed.

This effect is shared by several monsters. Basically it's Hold Person, except you make the saves at disadvantage. Yep, fun and interesting. Next!

Chuul (Challenge 4): see Carrion Crawler.

Cockatrice (Challenge 1/2): The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against being magically petrified. On a failed save the creature begins to turn to stone and is restrained. It must repeat the saving throw at the end of it's next turn. On a failure, the creature is petrified for 24 hours.

Petrification is a lot milder in 5e than most previous editions of the game. And the odds of turning to stone from a Cockatrice is pretty slim- it has to hit you with it's +3 to hit and you have to fail a DC 11 saving throw twice. But still, Challenge 1/2?? So you can face these things right off the bat, they can take you out of the picture for a day (or longer, if there's any enemies about who can do something dastardly to your stone form), you can run into multiple Cockatrices fairly quickly...and long before anyone has any way to deal with it. Next!

Dryad (Challenge 1): basically the same as the Cambion, but Challenge 1. I'd raise an eyebrow more at that, but you're not actually controlled, and Dryads traditionally won't abuse this effect the way I bet a Cambion would.

Spellcasting Enemies: felt the need to comment on these. Most spellcasting monsters can cast spells at a notably higher level than their Challenge (the worst offender I've found to date is the Illusionist from Dead in Thay who can cast Phantasmal Killer as a Challenge 3). A Challenge 7 who can cast 5th level spells? Perfectly fine. Fortunately, despite having access to higher level spell effects, which can get quite nasty, in 5e, it's more about the save DC than the effect- sure that Drow Mage can use Cloudkill, but it's only a DC of 14.

The effectiveness of bad guy spellcasters is highly variable, so it's hard to really comment on how dangerous failing saves against them is- it's highly dependent on their spell loadout, since not all spells are created equally, but spells are pretty much the nastiest things 5e can throw at you.

Even though I only got as far as "E" in the Monster Manual before I stopped caring, lol, the following things seem to be true:

*Nasty and un-fun penalties for failed saves do exist in 5e.
*Very high DC's for saves do exist in 5e.
*It's possible at some point for a player character to encounter a saving throw they cannot possibly make.
*However, the combination of extremely dangerous effects that have extremely high save DC's seems to be rare.
*On the other hand, there are extremely dangerous effects on low Challenge monsters, so it does become quite possible to face a trio of Banshees or a pack of Cockatrices at some point. Even a high saving throw can fail if tested enough.

The bottom line is, while some enemies are problematic in the extreme, I think a DM would have to go out of his way to employ them often, and a canny DM knows what the effect of such monsters can be on his or her game. I think that puts this discussion to rest, once it gets to the point of "a jerk/inexperienced DM could kill their party and suck all the fun out of D&D", because that's a problem with those kinds of DM's, and not the system's fault.

Also, some people LIKE playing D&D when you can die (or worse!) at any given moment. And it's perfectly ok for the system to support that kind of play.

Most of my experience with 5e is with public play, where you have less control over what enemies are used, and the adventure designers are happy to pick some of the more ridiculous enemies at times. In that environment, the intersection of dangerous effects + high DC's is a problem, but again, that's not really the system's fault.

I'd be happier with a game that puts less of a burden on the DM to not accidentally create "impossible" encounters, but that can happen in any system, no matter how well balanced.

Short and Sweet: highly dangerous enemies and stupidly high save DC's are a tool in the DM's arsenal in 5e. How fair and fun this can be is highly subjective to a given group's playstyle. I don't like it, but I fully acknowledge that it's only a problem if the DM makes it one, and you can't take the system to task for how it's tools are used.
High save DCs aren't "stupid". I really don't see it as controversial that epic foes come with DCs above 20.

What is baffling however is how a perfectly regular character will still sport multiple save bonuses at or around zero, even at max level, since this means they have literally zero chance of resisting those spells.

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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
But I'm not sure it helps to be so heated at people that think there were deliberate design decisions that they understand, but you don't like. Everyone has different preferences.
I do kind of feel that this topic is running into "it's not a bug, it's a FEATURE" territory. My personal thought is that if the designers didn't want rolls vs a DC to ever enter into 0% or 100% territory, they would have spelled that out explicitly. The fact that they use auto-success on a 20 and auto-fail on a 1 elsewhere in the rules, but not for saves, tells me that auto-fail and auto-success chances on saves are almost certainly intentional.
 

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