D&D 5E Failing saves is...ok?

I don't think so. 5e keeps the swing between best & worst bonuses relatively narrow, enough so that it doesn't overwhelm the d20. OTOH, it scales hp/damage dramatically. I wasn't aware of the specific quote, but it fits what I've said about BA from the beginning.

This definition that you use here fits your definition of bounded accuracy, but is dramatically different from Rodney Thompson's definition, which is: "The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained... Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace."

Tony's definition: assumes a narrow gap between best and worst d20 bonuses.
Rodney's definition: avoids making assumptions about d20 bonuses.

Rodney's definition: special abilities (e.g. immunity to charm) instead of numeric bonuses.
Tony's definition: ignores special abilities every time they have come up in this thread; focuses on numeric bonuses instead. E.g. in your last post, dismissed Counterspelling (special ability) Meteor Swarm out of hand and went back to looking at saving throws (numeric bonuses).

These are dramatically different definitions of Bounded Accuracy. In some ways they are diametrically opposed.

Rodney didn't do clarity a favor by naming his concept Bounded Accuracy. There would have been less confusion and fewer people getting upset about PCs who happen to have high bonuses to certain tasks if he'd called it Bounded Difficulty instead.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
This definition that you use here fits your definition of bounded accuracy, but is dramatically different from Rodney Thompson's definition, which is: "The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels.
BA is a design philosophy, not a prescription of how you must run your game. The DM's side of the game is mak'n stuff up.

Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained
Minor flaw in that is 'special abilities' aren't exactly comparable among classes. OK, other than casters... Ok, who are most classes... OK, and share lots of spells. OK, minor problem with my 'minor problem' there. ;)

So, genuinely minor problem with the 'special abilities' dodge is that there's a sub-class or few that don't really get much of any - they do get plenty of hp/damage scalling, though. So if we want to be fair to all (sub)classes, that's what has to carry the burden of scaling.

... Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace."
Hmmm... that last bit is off. There's only one pace of advancement for bonuses in 5e: proficiency. You advance or you don't. OK, expertise doubles it, but that's the only exception that comes to mind. Monster bonuses do scale with CR, as well. So it's not really classes advancing at their own pace, but advancing in their own areas. :shrug:

Tony's definition: assumes a narrow gap between best and worst d20 bonuses.
Which the game delivers: it doesn't overwhelm the d20.
Rodney's definition: avoids making assumptions about d20 bonuses.
I think we're missing some context for these quotes. About 15 years of context, against which BA is being contrasted, there.
In 3e, scaling was rapid and very uneven. Skills advanced by spending 'ranks,' that you gained as you leveled, so an in-class skill could be level+3+stat Mod+feats+items(items were assumed), while a cross class skill started at half-level, if you put a rank in it every level, and there were simply more skills than any class could get ranks, so plenty languished at 0. Those bonuses could exceed 20, even long before 17th level, and that created circumstances in which challenging the specialist PC, meant using DCs the other had /no chance against/. The same applied to a lesser degree with attack bonuses, full BAB classes with optimized AB could hit ACs on a 2 that other characters might miss on a anything short of a natural 20 (the way itterative attacks worked mitigated against that being a serious problem, but that was still common complaint). Then there were saving throws. The DCs scaled with spell level and caster stat mod - and feats &c - and could be optimized to the point even 'good' save bonuses had little chance vs a top-level spell. Bad saves were abysmal. But, there were at least only 3 of them, so it wasn't as impossible to try to cover them all, just a losing battle vs the casters' (and monsters, all the same options were open to them) optimized DCs.

That was a pretty appalling situation, and 5e BA is, in part, a reaction against it.

It's also, in larger part, a reaction against the 4e solution to that same problem, because it also did something pretty damn appalling: it worked.
4e simply put everyone on the same basic advancement: 1/2 level. Instead of variable BAB and DC optimization and 'bad saves' and ranks resulting in swings of 23+ overwhelming the d20 and making it impossible to set DCs that'd keep everyone relevant, 'training' granted a +5, proficiency a +2 or +3, and good saves +1 or +2 over 'bad' saves - and named bonuses were curtailed and also pegged to progression via feats and 3e-style wealth/level & make/buy, reducing the impact of optimization. Challenges - monster level, skill DCs, etc were rated relative to that progression, so they'd be fairly consistently challenging when 'level appropriate.' The result was a 'treadmill,' because the game remained consistent, balanced, and functional at all levels: at-level challenges could be taken on with confidence, higher level with increasing difficulty, around level+4 or 5 it got very deadly, much below level -1 or 2, trivial. But, advancement was rapid, all 'expected' bonuses factored in, it was about a +1/level at anything you were trying to be reasonably good at, and numbers were /big/. The game spanned from low 'heroic' levels to 30th at the end of epic. So towards the end, you'd be looking at numbers above +20, the same as were overwhelming the d20 in 3e, the difference being that the low end wasn't languishing at 0 at those levels. (Just as with 3e, mitigations like that were ignored when the game was criticized).
Also, tellingly, the way 4e handled it's equivalent of ASIs meant that PCs were mostly channelled into maxing out two stats and letting the rest more or less languish (one way it which it very much wasn't a treadmill), that meant that at least one non-AC defense (the 4e equivalent of save bonus), was going to languish a bit, net getting 'worse' relative to the attacks you'd be weathering at high level. There were ways to shore it up, feats, selective use of stat increases and build tricks, but that required system mastery and diverted build resources, and the gap still wasn't going to be huge, it's just enemies might be hitting your worse non-AC defense on a 4 rather than a 9 at very high level - and, the consequences of being 'hit' by an attack, even one that's modeling some nasty spell of past editions, really were a lot less severe - and generally included some hp damage, anyway - the effects might last a turn or be 'save ends' (and saves were a duration mechanic, 55/45 - nothing like repeating a save you need a natural 20 to pass, or can't make, at all).

I can't begin to get across the horrors and excesses of the edition war, but the upshot for Next/5e and BA was that it absolutely had to avoid certain things that became rallying cries. Big numbers. Long combats. Fighter casting spells (whoops). Etc... It also kinda needed to avoid returning all the problems 3e had had. OTOH, the problems of the classic game were prettymuch OK to return to. ;) Nostalgia, y'know, 'brand identity.'

So when Mr. Thompson briefly alludes to 'not making assumptions' on the DM's side, he means there's no wealth/level or make/buy, no uneven, uncontrolled rapid scaling, and no prescribed progression of challenge to keep pace with scaling, even if it were controlled, slow, and even.

When BA works, it means the DM can drop a challenge out of the blue that's of a very different nominal level than the PCs, and they'll have shot (maybe a pretty slight shot) at making relevant checks. It doesn't mean they'll have any chance against it if its much higher level. It just means that d20 isn't overwhelmed by specialization /nor/ by level. Instead, numeric scaling is mostly contained in hp/damage. The much lower-level enemy in a battle might be missed now and then, might hit now and then, but will not be able to keep up in the DPR-based race-to-0-hps of D&D combat. He's able to participate, but he's gonna lose. Likewise, a higher level combatant has to be pretty badly outnumbered to be taken down, because he has so much resilience from his massive pile of hps.

Now, characters do also 'progress' or 'become better,' in a sense, by getting to do new things, as well as being much tougher and hitting harder, and doing the few things they were particularly good at just slightly better. Getting to do a new thing is not the same as being able to survive a Meteor Swarm because you just have that many hps. It might be, in the case of casters, because they get to accumulate so many new things to do and have so much flexibility in which thing they do when, and may be able to apply this or that spell as a 'win button' in this or that situation, but it's not the same thing. It's breadth. It's nice, but it's not necessarily going to help you stand up to something of CR close to your level the way having a pile of hps and dishing a pile of damage will.

Where BA falls down is when the system depends on one or two d20 checks to resolve some level-CR-rated 'challenge,' instead of on something, like hp/damage, that actually scales. Saves are the most evident example.

Trying to create something akin to a 'skill challenge' or rate a non-combat challenge for exp to a degree similar to what's done in encounter building, would run into similar problems. Precisely because designs don't allow for workable assumptions about bonuses scaling with level, and the other two pillars have little to hang their 'challenge' on beyond DCs...
 
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Tony, I like you as a person and I appreciate the effort you're going to to explain 3E history, etc. But all I really need at this point is an acknowledgement that yes, you mean something totally different by "bounded accuracy" than WotC designer Rodney Thompson did when he coined the term early in 5E's dev cycle. (You're not alone in that BTW.) That's the only point seriously under dispute.

There's a separate discussion to be had about whether 5E hews more closely to your definition of boundedness (basically, not falling off the d20; presumably hewing as closely as possible to the so-called 60% "sweet spot" where players succeed about 60% of the time and monsters fail about 60% of the time) or to Rodney Thompson's. That's not a bad discussion to have, but first it has to be clarified that you and Rodney are not talking about pretty much the same thing--you're kind of talking about opposite things, which is why every time I give an illustration of Rodney's definition (Counterspelling Meteor Swarm) you dismiss it in four words and go right back to talking about your version.

Do we agree that you're using "bounded accuracy" in a different sense than Rodney Thompson did when he coined the term for 5E? (You've already admitted you'd never read his definition before, so it shouldn't be painful to agree to this.)

It's cool if you don't like BA (in the Wotc/5e/Rodney Thompson sense of the word). It's even cool if you like bounded accuracy in the Tony sense of the word, although I'd suggest that it's probably better not to call it "bounded accuracy" for clarity's sake. It just doesn't make sense to argue that you love it in the Rodney Thompson sense while ignoring Rodney's definitions.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Tony, I like you as a person and I appreciate the effort you're going to to explain 3E history, etc. But all I really need at this point is an acknowledgement that yes, you mean something totally different by "bounded accuracy" than WotC designer Rodney Thompson did when he coined the term early in 5E's dev cycle.
I don't feel I am using it differently. Maybe from a different perspective or with a different history than the context in which you're understanding it. But, not that differently from what he /probably/ (I'm no mind reader) meant, in that early-development context, which couldn't have been that different from the way it was articulated during the playtest...

(basically, not falling off the d20; presumably hewing as closely as possible to the so-called 60% "sweet spot" where players succeed about 60% of the time and monsters fail about 60% of the time) or to Rodney Thompson's.
I didn't say anything about 60%, but yes, not overwhelming the d20 is a feature of BA. From incompetent PC (-1) to 20 stat & full proficiency (+11) even to Expertise (+17), it doesn't /quite/ leave the d20 behind. That's by design, AFAIK, from everything I heard around the playtest, indeed, Expertise seems to push it a bit.

But, for the DM to make that work, he still needs to think about DCs. It's not that every DC works without worrying about the 3e phenomenon, it's that /some/ do. A DC 10 isn't going to mean anything to the +11 character, for instance, you want the -1 and the +11 to both participate, you need something between DC 13 and 19.

Works with skills, even at 20th level with expertise vs 1st with nuth'n, at right around DC 19. If saves were about as impactful as attacks and as voluntary as skill use, there'd be no problem.

But they're enough saves that go way beyond that, that jump off the hp/damage scaling and the "I'm helping" bandwagon of skill participation and make the inevitable total lack of advancement on one or a few saves potentially problematic, that some of us just might want to tweak things to get ahead of it.

which is why every time I give an illustration of Rodney's definition (Counterspelling Meteor Swarm) you dismiss it in four words and go right back to talking about your version.
That's not an illustration of his definition. Surviving a Meteor Swarm because you just have that many hps, that illustrates it. Hp/damage instead of d20 bonuses/DCs for meaningful numerical scaling.

'Special abilities' can be little more than ribbons - but they're still advancement, a way for characters to grow and differentiate and players to have something to look forward to next level.

Do we agree that you're using "bounded accuracy" in a different sense than Rodney Thompson did when he coined the term for 5E? (You've already admitted you'd never read his definition before, so it shouldn't be painful to agree to this.)
Actually, I find the "two" quite compatible. I wish I'd had the quote available in some discussions earlier in the ed's life cycle, when folks were adamant that scaling had not been 'off-loaded to hps/damage.'

I just think you're resting far too much weight on the two words 'special abilities.'
 

I didn't say anything about 60%, but yes, not overwhelming the d20 is a feature of BA.

Not according to Rodney Thompson. He spends a whole article waxing eloquent about the benefits of bounded accuracy, and nowhere does he say anything at all about success ratios or the psychology of usually succeeding on a die roll. As Thompson describes it, you could have a wizard who still has the same attack bonus at 20th level that he had at level one, and that would be fine if he had enough special features to offset that. 5E happens not to have shipped with any classes like that, but you could make a class that got double HP and no saving throw or armor proficiencies, and an adventure built around bounded accuracy (Rodney Thompson's definition, not Tony's definition) would still function with that class.

That's not an illustration of his definition. Surviving a Meteor Swarm because you just have that many hps, that illustrates it. Hp/damage instead of d20 bonuses/DCs for meaningful numerical scaling.

'Special abilities' can be little more than ribbons - but they're still advancement, a way for characters to grow and differentiate and players to have something to look forward to next level.

Proof by bald assertion? You just say "that doesn't count" and so you get to ignore the illustration that corresponds exactly to Rodney's words?

5E is chock full of special abilities which completely bypass d20 modifiers: devotion paladins are immune to charm spells, wizards can Counterspell Meteor Swarms, tieflings are resistant to fire, etc. The minute you start seriously examining saving throw failures you run right smack into the fact that special abilities often partially or wholly mitigate the same effects that saving throws do, sometimes much better than a saving throw can do. According to Rodney Thompson, that's bounded accuracy. According to Tony Vargas, it isn't.

Actually, I find the "two" quite compatible. I wish I'd had the quote available in some discussions earlier in the ed's life cycle, when folks were adamant that scaling had not been 'off-loaded to hps/damage.'

I just think you're resting far too much weight on the two words 'special abilities.'

It's not just two words. It's a whole article. He outright says, "our expected DCs do not scale with level," and discusses the consequences thereof. This is exactly the assumption you want to toss out the window: you want expected DCs to scale with level, so you want saving throw bonuses to scale with level too. You may want to still call it "bounded accuracy" because you're trying to prevent saving throws from falling off the die roll as those expected DCs scale with level--but you still mean the opposite of what Rodney Thompson meant. In contrast, a wizard who Counterspells Meteor Swarm with Counterspell IX is using a special ability which doesn't care if the saving throw DC for Meteor Swarm is 13 or 35--he's simply bypassing the DC with his special ability to say "Nope."

For your convenience, I'll copy and paste it here, since it's no longer at its original URL:

Conventional D&D wisdom tells us that the maxim "the numbers go up" is an inherent part of the class and level progression in D&D. While that might be true, in the next iteration of the game we're experimenting with something we call the bounded accuracy system.

The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster's hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character's increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.

Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don't have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.

This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level.

We think the bounded accuracy system is good for the game for a number of different reasons, including the following:

Getting better at something means actually getting better at something. Since target numbers (DCs for checks, AC, and so on) and monster accuracy don't scale with level, gaining a +1 bonus means you are actually 5% better at succeeding at that task, not simply hitting some basic competence level. When a fighter gets a +1 increase to his or her attack bonus, it means he or she hits monsters across the board 5% more often. This means that characters, as they gain levels, see a tangible increase in their competence, not just in being able to accomplish more amazing things, but also in how often they succeed at tasks they perform regularly.

Nonspecialized characters can more easily participate in many scenes. While it's true that increases in accuracy are real and tangible, it also means that characters can achieve a basic level of competence just through how players assign their ability bonuses. Although a character who gains a +6 bonus to checks made to hide might do so with incredible ease, the character with only a naked ability bonus still has a chance to participate. We want to use the system to make it so that specialized characters find tasks increasingly trivial, while other characters can still make attempts without feeling they are wasting their time.

The DM's monster roster expands, never contracts. Although low-level characters probably don't stack up well against higher-level monsters, thanks to the high hit points and high damage numbers of those monsters, as the characters gain levels, the lower-level monsters continue to be useful to the DM, just in greater numbers. While we might fight only four goblins at a time at 1st level, we might take on twelve of them at 5th level without breaking a sweat. Since the monsters don't lose the ability to hit the player characters—instead they take out a smaller percentage chunk of the characters' hit points—the DM can continue to increase the number of monsters instead of needing to design or find whole new monsters. Thus, the repertoire of monsters available for DMs to use in an adventure only increases over time, as new monsters become acceptable challenges and old monsters simply need to have their quantity increased.

Bounded accuracy makes it easier to DM and easier to adjudicate improvised scenes. After a short period of DMing, DMs should gain a clear sense of how to assign DCs to various tasks. If the DM knows that for most characters a DC of 15 is a mildly difficult check, then the DM starts to associate DC values with in-world difficulties. Thus, when it comes time to improvise, a link has been created between the difficulty of the challenge in the world (balancing as you run across this rickety bridge is pretty tough due to the breaking planks, especially if you're not a nimble character) and the target number. Since those target numbers don't change, the longer a DM runs his or her game, the easier it is going to be to set quick target numbers, improvise monster attack bonuses and AC, or determine just what kind of bonus a skilled NPC has to a particular check. The DM's understanding of how difficult tasks are ceases to be a moving target under a bounded accuracy system.

It opens up new possibilities of encounter and adventure design. A 1st-level character might not fight the black dragon plaguing the town in a face-to-face fight and expect to survive. But if they rally the town to their side, outfit the guards with bows and arrows, and whittle the dragon down with dozens of attacks instead of only four or five, the possibilities grow. With the bounded accuracy system, lower-level creatures banding together can erode a higher-level creature's hit points, which cuts both ways; now, fights involving hordes of orcs against the higher-level party can be threatening using only the basic orc stat block, and the city militia can still battle against the fire giants rampaging at the gates without having to inflate the statistics of the city guards to make that possible.

It is easier for players and DMs to understand the relative strength and difficulty of things. Under the bounded accuracy system, a DM can describe a hobgoblin wearing chainmail, and, no matter what the level of the characters, a player can reasonably guess that the hobgoblin's AC is around 15; the description of the world matches up to mechanical expectations, and eventually players will see chainmail, or leather armor, or plate mail in game and have an instinctive response to how tough things are. Likewise, a DM knows that he or she can reasonably expect players to understand the difficulty of things based purely on their in-world description, and so the DM can focus more on the details of the world rather than on setting player expectations.

It's good for verisimilitude. The bounded accuracy system lets us perpetually associate difficulty numbers with certain tasks based on what they are in the world, without the need to constantly escalate the story behind those tasks. For example, we can say that breaking down an iron-banded wooden door is a DC 17 check, and that can live in the game no matter what level the players are. There's no need to constantly escalate the in-world descriptions to match a growing DC; an iron-banded door is just as tough to break down at 20th level as it was at 1st, and it might still be a challenge for a party consisting of heroes without great Strength scores. There's no need to make it a solid adamantine door encrusted with ancient runes just to make it a moderate challenge for the high-level characters. Instead, we let that adamantine door encrusted with ancient runes have its own high DC as a reflection of its difficulty in the world. If players have the means of breaking down the super difficult adamantine door, it's because they pursued player options that make that so, and it is not simply a side effect of continuing to adventure.

This feeds in with the earlier point about DMs and players understanding the relative strengths and weaknesses of things, since it not only makes it easier to understand play expectations, but it also ties those expectations very firmly to what those things are in the world. Now, we want to avoid situations where DMs feel bound by the numbers. ("Hey," says the player, "you said it was an iron-bound wooden door and I rolled a 17, what do you mean I didn't break it down?") We hope to do that by making sure we focus more on teaching DMs how to determine DCs and other numbers, and letting them adjust descriptions and difficulties based on their needs.

-Rodney Thompson, D&D designer
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
nowhere does he say anything at all about success ratios or the psychology of usually succeeding on a die roll.
I don't recall saying anything about 60% success rates nor psychology either.

5E happens not to have shipped with any classes like that, but you could make a class that got double HP and no saving throw or armor proficiencies, and an adventure built around bounded accuracy would still function with that class.
The adventure might function. The character of that class might be turned to stone by cockatrices or something.

5E is chock full of special abilities which completely bypass d20 modifiers: devotion paladins are immune to charm spells, wizards can Counterspell Meteor Swarms, tieflings are resistant to fire, etc.
Nice for them, but not taking the place of bonus scaling in past editions the way hp/damage does in 5e. There's two different things going on there. Accumulating special abilities is character growth of a different sort than accumulating a giant (boring, I suppose, but it lets you stay alive and doin' non-boring stuff) pile of hps. Cool special abilities define you characters in ways that you might have, in prior editions, done by optimizing some massive bonus in some very narrow area, like a diplomancer build.

They do not help so much with getting you through the series of encounters that earn you enough exp to get to the next level. Hps do that in lieu of getting some hugely scaling AC or REF or whatever. And saving throws /should/ be doing that for save-or-else effects that bypass hps, but they aren't. Solutions might include a lower floor for saves - or re-designing such effects to incorporate hps, either by doing damage, like Disintegrate, or comparing vs current hps, like Sleep, for instance.

The minute you start seriously examining saving throw failures you run right smack into the fact that special abilities often partially or wholly mitigate the same effects that saving throws do
OK, list the Fighter(Champion) special abilities that negate the effects of failed saving throws.

Thompson said:
The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster's hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character's increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.
So, right there, he precisely backs up what I've been saying. In place of attack bonuses & 'defenses' (4e reference to that edition's alternative to the attack/save dichotomy), you have scaling hp/damage. 'New capabilities' speak to differentiation, not to scaling to handle higher-level challenges.


It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace.
Remember, this was earlier in the process, ultimately they did settle on a set schedule, that applied across all classes. It's called Proficiency. It was an interesting development, late in the playtest, when it was introduced.

It opens up new possibilities of encounter and adventure design. A 1st-level character might not fight the black dragon plaguing the town in a face-to-face fight and expect to survive. But if they rally the town to their side, outfit the guards with bows and arrows, and whittle the dragon down with dozens of attacks instead of only four or five, the possibilities grow. With the bounded accuracy system, lower-level creatures banding together can erode a higher-level creature's hit points
I wish I'd had a link to this article when 5e dropped. There was a whole kerfuffle over peasants killing dragons. It'd've been nice to show that it was likely by design.
 

The Old Crow

Explorer
They do not help so much with getting you through the series of encounters that earn you enough exp to get to the next level. Hps do that in lieu of getting some hugely scaling AC or REF or whatever. And saving throws /should/ be doing that for save-or-else effects that bypass hps, but they aren't. Solutions might include a lower floor for saves - or re-designing such effects to incorporate hps, either by doing damage, like Disintegrate, or comparing vs current hps, like Sleep, for instance.

Yup, I see Saving Throws as more analogous to Hit Points than to Armor Class, as the thing that stand between a character and certain unwanted conditions. I didn't like the idea of tying the effects to current Hit Points that was discussed during the playtest, for several reasons. For one I thought it made for pressing on when down a few hp from something slightly risky to something downright stupidly risky, and would just feed into the 5mwd. Also it did not make sense to have to beat up people so one could cast charm on them, rather than hitching on a winning smile and spinning a good tale. I guess Fighter types and Dwarves would make out if it were like that, though.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Yup, I see Saving Throws as more analogous to Hit Points than to Armor Class, as the thing that stand between a character and certain unwanted conditions. I didn't like the idea of tying the effects to current Hit Points that was discussed during the playtest, for several reasons. For one I thought it made for pressing on when down a few hp from something slightly risky to something downright stupidly risky, and would just feed into the 5mwd.
A valid concern, OTOH, it could also mitigate against whack-a-mole healing, since you'd want to heal moderately-damaged allies to reduce such vulnerabilities.

Also it did not make sense to have to beat up people so one could cast charm on them, rather than hitching on a winning smile and spinning a good tale.
There could be a psychic-damage cantrip along the lines of a kindler/gentler vicious mockery for the purpose. Or Charms could simply scale 'damage' with slot level... oh, or they could go against max hps, but be cumulative, so a bevy of cultists could 'love bomb' a higher level target into the charmed family. ;)

I guess Fighter types and Dwarves would make out if it were like that, though.
It wouldn't hurt to throw another bone to the fighter.
 
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The Old Crow

Explorer
l... oh, or they could go against max hps, but be cumulative, so a bevy of cultists could 'love bomb' a higher level target into the charmed family. ;)

Heh, "Have a flower! And a pamphlet! We love you! Now join our cause!" That would actually be pretty hilarious.

But if going on max hps, does it make sense for it to work better or worse by Hit Dice size, or for Constitution to be basically the only stat that applies to protecting characters from any effect? If using max hps, would it make sense instead to just use levels, in which case we would be back to old fashioned Saving Throws. I guess I would look for an explanation of why hps and Con should apply to any given effect.

It wouldn't hurt to throw another bone to the fighter.

I am all for Fighters getting better saves, as it would be a nifty feature good both in and out of combat, that would make them definite Lead The Way material. They certainly would benefit though I think Barbarians and Paladins probably benefit more.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
But if going on max hps, does it make sense for it to work better or worse by Hit Dice size,
Sure!
or for Constitution to be basically the only stat that applies to protecting characters from any effect?
Bit of a stretch, I suppose, but separate hp totals'd be a bit much.

I guess I would look for an explanation of why hps and Con should apply to any given effect.
HDs are protection from everything, including psychic damage, so that should be fine. CON boosts your hps...
 
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