D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Tony Vargas]

Once again, wishing for the ability to both laugh and XP....

Eureka! (15d2)-12 conforms more closely to a normal distribution than any other dice-rolling method yet, and it covers the 3-18 range as well! Interestingly, it comes within 1-2% of the frequency of all results of 3d{2,3,3,4,4,5}, except for 10 and 11, which are slightly less likely using this method. I'd say the averaging method is a good approximation, but if the remote chance of rolling 3 or 18 is important, this method produces a distribution that's very close to what you'd expect to find in the real world.

So for PCs, would that be 20d2-keep-15?

Added benefit: 20 pennies is cheaper than four dice!

 

[Hussar]

Once again, wishing for the ability to both laugh and XP....

So for PCs, would that be 20d2-keep-15?

Added benefit: 20 pennies is cheaper than four dice!

Oh gawd. I can just picture the coins flying at the table. I've seen players who have enough trouble keeping one die on the bloody table. Can you just imagine the mess that each person flipping 20 coins at a time? They'd murder the bloody cat.
[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - just a note here. I think I can see where the issue lies in our disagreement. You keep focusing on the randomly generated numbers as the source of realism. However, I see a problem there. It's not the numbers that makes for realism. After all, any die rolled array that fits into the 27 point buy doesn't suddenly make 27 point buy more realistic.

No, the issue is in the choosing. You're right that people don't get to choose whether they are strong or smart. But, EVERY PC chargen system allows the player to choose stats. Changing the numbers or randomly generating the numbers isn't the issue. It's the simple fact that every stat is chosen by the player. In the DM's case, every stat is chosen by the DM and likely any die roll will be ignored at the DM's whim, making even the idea of die rolling pretty laughable.

But, at the end of the day, I'm not objecting to the die rolling adding realism. I disagree, but, that's not really the big issue. No, the bigger issue is the fact that the player chooses where to put those stats. How can you argue for realism in a system which is inherently unrealistic at its roots?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Oh gawd. I can just picture the coins flying at the table. I've seen players who have enough trouble keeping one die on the bloody table. Can you just imagine the mess that each person flipping 20 coins at a time? They'd murder the bloody cat.

Yes, I can imagine. ;>
As one of my playtesters said during Murder in Balder's Gate: "you have to make your own fun."

 

[Hriston]

As you spend points for a specific number, you are choosing that number.

That choice comes with an opportunity cost that takes other decisions away from you. For example, you can't have a 15 in your highest ability and have a 12 in your lowest ability, or a 13 in your second lowest. Those decisions are mutually exclusive, so you aren't choosing only that number.

More than one person here has said realism is the issue, so it is. You don't get to decide what is or is not an issue for us.

Okay, but if the realism issue is really about whether you select the numbers from a list or have the numbers randomly generated for you by some dice, then I don't understand how one is more realistic than the other. Does anyone actually believe the character is either doing the selecting or rolling the dice? I wouldn't think so. I would think that these and other acts of character creation are done by the players in director stance, "separately from the character's knowledge or ability to influence events." That's why I think realism is an unintentional red herring, diverting from the actual issue that for some players, dice-rolling for ability scores is more immersive because decision-making in director stance is incompatible with feelings of immersion.

It says you can roll, and provides a default method to roll.

It provides only a default method to roll for adventurers. You can use it for other types of characters if you want to, but it isn't a default method for them.

There is no rule anywhere in 5e that says that the PHB method of rolling is for adventurers only.

I agree. You can use it for types of characters other than those for which it was designed and intended.

 

[Hussar]

That's why I think realism is an unintentional red herring, diverting from the actual issue that for some players, dice-rolling for ability scores is more immersive because decision-making in director stance is incompatible with feelings of immersion.

Just pulling this out because this is, I think, the heart of the issue. It's not about realism, it's about immersion.

 

[MichaelSomething]

When I DM, I give my players a choice on which method to use! 3d6 in order or second lowest allowant in point buy

Sent from my VS990 using EN World mobile app

 

[Lanefan]

Added benefit: 20 pennies is cheaper than four dice!

In the USA maybe. In Canada we haven't had pennies for a few years now...

 

[Lanefan]

I was thinking thousands, but yes, that's the point. You don't roll up thousands, or even hundreds, of PCs in a typical campaign (maybe dozens in a really Killer one),

195 PCs so far in my current campaign, over almost ten years, plus about 90 adventuring NPCs of various types.

let alone keep statistics about their, well, statistics.

Er...I have (most of) those, too.

Lanefan

 

[Oofta]

I was thinking thousands, but yes, that's the point. You don't roll up thousands, or even hundreds, of PCs in a typical campaign (maybe dozens in a really Killer one),

195 PCs so far in my current campaign, over almost ten years, plus about 90 adventuring NPCs of various types.
Er...I have (most of) those, too.

Lanefan

You monster! Think of all those adventurers, waiting to have a fulfilling life slaying goblins only never to be played. Crying out in the dark emptiness of the void "Why was I create only to never be used? Why?*

*Yes, I do assume that Wreck it Ralph or Toy Story are documentaries.

 

[Maxperson]

So a range of 8-15 is not so meaningfully different from 3-18, since neither are "the full range."

The full normal range is 3-20 after racial adjustments. You can only go above or below that by special means. Having access to the full normal range is meaningfully different than being limited to 8-15.