D&D 5E Paladin: Why Are They Often Considered Highly Powerful?

[Ovinomancer]

For Paladin lovers try Oath of the Crown with shield master. They can't run away with your Oath, you can keep bless up so you can prone them more with your bonus action(bless works on ability checks) to try to land that doubled smite, and you get Spirit Guardians to cut their speed in half and melt them. A proned creature in a Spirit Guardians field can only crawl to you. Overlap with a cloud of daggers and they just die.

Um, no. Add noted, bless doesn't add to ability checks. Also, it's takes half your speed to stand from prone. Spirit guardians halves the speed of those affected. If your speed is 30, SG halves it to 15, and you spend 10 to stand from prone leaving you 5. Crawford is on record that changes to speed also change the standing cost. For instance, haste double your speed, doubling the cost to stand from prone.

But, even if you ignore that, your oppentent can still stand and not move with SG up. Half your speed is half your speed. If, for some reason, that's not enough due to something you haven't yet mentioned, they could still dash to get the necessary movement to stand.

Also, you couldn't have both bless and SG up at the same time. Not could you have clos of daggers up with either SG or bless. Concentration limits such tactics. Unless your party is chiming in, in which case the paladin part is quickly overshadowed in possible combos.

 

[Valetudo]

Smite does a bucket-load of damage on a crit. Take few levels of fighter and you crit on 19-20. Then take a couple levels of barbarian and you attack with advantage all the time. Then take the rest of your levels as sorcerer and you have lots of spell slots to use for smiting. While this is happening take the Defense fighting style, put on some plate armor and sling a shield and you have a decent armor class. And if you play your cards right you have a nice Charisvsma bonus that provides one of the best buffs in the game.

multiclassing this much will get you nowhere fast. Just throw a couple of warlock levels on and your fine.vs

 

[Bishop_]

To me the Paladin isn't overpowered. It is powerful, for sure. But I think this came from the class design approach -- that, imho, is the best designed class in the PHB.

 

[Lost Soul]

OK let's drill down on that.



I don't think anyone cares about this. They're a fighter type. Pretty much all the classes can achieve a good armor class if they want, and get the at-will damage they want. No biggie here.



I agree the save bonus at level 6 is meaningful.



A few claims in here. First, smites that go off twice per round. It's a limited resource applicable only to when you hit with a weapon, which isn't by definition twice a round. It is limited by spell slots as well, and you don't get a whole lot of spell slots. The actual damage from the smite isn't itself more than what spells can do, and in fact it's on average less from the smite itself. For the obvious example, a 3rd level spell slot used for a smite is 4d8 (average 18) and to only one target. A fireball of the same spell slot is 8d6 (28) and to many many targets. Even if the targets save, they're still taking almost the same damage as the smite (which again is only one target).

As for crits, they're quite rare, and usually already over-damaging the target beyond their hit point total.

Now you still have the weapon damage. But it's pretty ordinary weapon damage, which you had to hit with. And as you don't have a lot of the special abilities of a ranger or extra feats of a fighter, you're likely not hitting as often as they do.



What now? You mean from higher level spell slots? As mentioned above, that's not actually a very good payoff for those higher level slots sometimes.



I disagree. The rogue can do it all day. The Paladin can only do it a very limited number of times. They really don't get many spell slots. You're basically saying a Paladin can nova better than a rogue, which is true. But, so? A rogue can outlast them. So, seems pretty even to me.



I really have no idea why a Paladin steps on a cleric or a wizard. That's a very apples to oranges comparison that would need a lot more support.

Some nice points there Mistwell but I disagree with your premise in a number of ways.

1) Armor & weapons do matter. Paladin could have an AC of 20 or better. Rogues have an AC on average of 15 - 17. If a paladin smites Strahd Von Zarovich, Strahd might miss the paladin on a counter attack, especially if the paladin preps Protection from Evil and Strahd attacks a high AC with disadvantage. This spell also protects against the vampire's charm gaze. The rogue sneak attacks Strahd and gets clobbered by the counterattack due to poor AC and lack of abilities such as Prot from Evil. Oh and the rogue has no defenses and weak saves vs the vampire's charm gaze.

2 a) Smites as a limited resource is not a balancing act, especially if a party has a short adventuring day. A paladin can nova several times and save them for boss battles such as Strahd. If arcane spells and spells in general have had to be nerfed over several editions of D&D then the whole 'limited resource' argument doesn't hold much weight.

2 b) Very few casters can cast more than one spell per round using a bonus action. Even then they are limited to using a regular spell and a cantrip or a basic attack. For some reason paladins get to REPEATEDLY break this rule and are only limited by their spell slot availability as to which spells they channel for smites.

3) No, the additional D8 is gained in place of another attack and is similar to the smite damage bonus that clerics get when using the attack option. It is overkill and paladin's do not need it.

4) I disagree. The paladin shouldn't even be close to doing it 3/4 of the day when the rogue can do it all day. The rogue doesn't have a major heal, great armor, heavy weapons, spells, smites, auras, cleansing touch, fighting style or divine health

5) The cleric was the original support character. The paladin makes a FAR better support character just by auras and laying on of hands. LOH can remove a disease or poison by using a mere 5 hp. That costs the cleric a spell. Ancient paladins grant 1/2 damage vs all spell damage to all creatures in 10/30. A cleric can't duplicate that feat. Devotion paladins grant charm immunity at will. Paladins nova better than wizards and easily out damage then while having better hit points, saves and armor. Paladin's also have excellent battlefield control due to misty step, dimension door, hast, freedom of movement and tree stride

 

[smbakeresq]

Of course you couldn't have bless and SG up at same time. Never meant to imply that. Paladins cant cast cloud of daggers, of course its a teammate doing it. The Paladin part is never overshadowed in possible combos, it can always contribute. Its a team game.

The idea is that they cant escape SG in a normal move. They can crawl to you and attack, or just stand up. I have never seen that on the on the record, where is that. If that's the ruling that's absurd, especially in it application with haste.

Either way they can only move one square, so probably not out of field. If they use a dash great, they just wasted the whole turn to avoid taking damage next turn and you can just move the field over them. Usually they will just fight it out, taking damage at the cost of attacking you.

Spirit Guardians is a ridiculous spell to have going and worthy of building around since it damages whenever they enter on a turn, not a round. If you coordinate with the party they can push people into and out of the zone multiple times per round, piling up damage. Lightening lure can work, Dissonant Whispers, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, Plant Growth, Spike Growth, Thunder waves, grapples, shoves, difficult terrain etc, can all keep them in or put them in. The damage isn't much but its constant over a rather larger area to grind them down and half their speed. Its 15' radius up and down also, so it will affect flyers and those below you also. Once the team sees it in action, they will take steps to put people in it, counting the damage done as "their" damage done on their turn.

It used to be even better, you could run the zone over them and it would count, but this was changed (correctly for balance and intent) some time ago.


Considering all the other tools you get, adding auto-damage, speed reducing zones to Paladins is probably a little much. It takes some time to get but its worth it, especially if you plan to play through level 20. The other oaths help you mostly against single targets, Crown is for the masses of enemies although its fine against solos also. Its great for the Age or Worms path, with many Sons of Kyuss (and much more powerful versions) that just hurl kyuss worms at you all the time.





Back to the OP, Paladins also have a bunch of just useful and fun and unique stuff. Wrathful Smite is sort of crazy for a 1st level spell that's tacked on to a weapon attack, handing out disadvantage on all attacks and checks, it can take the teeth out of a lot of brutes. Free mount that you can always get back. You can interrogate people with Zone of Truth. Crusaders Mantle can charge up your allies and their summons or undead minions, if your DM rules it works with an ally's Animate Objects its crazy good. Aura of Vitality is 20-120 HP in healing for a 3rd level spell or 70-170 with one level of Life cleric. Flat out bonus damage at level 11 with the radiant type. Destructive Wave comes late (a Lore Bard can get it at 10th level, you don't until 17) but is very good, even at that level.

As a side note, for my son who wanted to play a Paladin like Reinhardt in Overwatch, I started with Thunderous Smite as a level 1 spell, then Thunderwave at 2nd level, and kept increasing damage and radius until I got to Destructive wave as a level 5 spell to simulate the Earthshatter ability. Eventually he found a magic hammer that gives him the Fire Strike ability, that just mimics the Wizard spell firebolt.

Although high level play is rare, Paladins have average to very good high level abilities and spells. The capstones are at least decent.

The Paladin toolbox is just huge and varied and useful and fun. Compared to the other martial classes there is just a lot there.

 

[smbakeresq]

A Paladin almost cant waste a Smite on a critical hit overkill as you can choose when to use it after you see the attack roll. Radiant damage type isn't bad, like the spell See Invisibility you don't need it in 9 out of 10 encounters but in the 10th its essential. Since you choose to use it on a hit only you only use it when you need it, so it stretches it out somewhat.

While I agree a Rogue can do it all day, its also the rogues main damaging ability. Really its the hook of the rogue class, if you want skills but not sneak attack you probably choose Bard or Monk in some cases. I would argue Paladins don't have a "main" ability, they have a bunch of stuff that ranges from average and useful to really good in the right situation.

IME with a Paladin you can build him/her first and then tell the group what you are doing so they can build their PC's around your abilities, or build him/her last after seeing what type of group you have and how best you are needed.

Needless to say I am big fan of the Paladin. Most tables need a frontliner, and a Paladin can always find something to do. I am working on a Dragonborn build now, expecting Xanathars racial feats to be like UA to snag Dragon Hide to get a bonus action claw attack with full STR mods to use with divine smite and dueling, although I am not sure if the claw attack will be considered a "weapon" for dueling or divine smite


Not part of this thread, but for the Fighter to compete with the toolbox of the Paladin it would need more, a unique ability, I prefer stances of some type.

 

[Mistwell]

A Paladin almost cant waste a Smite on a critical hit overkill as you can choose when to use it after you see the attack roll.

Damage dice results vary WILDLY. The range is even larger with a crit, and larger still adding smite to it. Of course you can overkill with it. The risk is much higher in fact. You have no idea if you will roll low on the "normal" damage going in, and you must decide before throwing any of the damage dice.

I would argue Paladins don't have a "main" ability, they have a bunch of stuff that ranges from average and useful to really good in the right situation.

Look at the answers above. Virtually 100% mention smite as the primary issue in play here. I am pretty sure it's as prominent as sneak attack.

 

[smbakeresq]

Damage dice results vary WILDLY. The range is even larger with a crit, and larger still adding smite to it. Of course you can overkill with it. The risk is much higher in fact. You have no idea if you will roll low on the "normal" damage going in, and you must decide before throwing any of the damage dice.


Look at the answers above. Virtually 100% mention smite as the primary issue in play here. I am pretty sure it's as prominent as sneak attack.

No, you know approximately the HP of anything you meet, and then you track all the damage it has taken it has taken, and your DM will describe the condition to you also. From experience I can tell within %5-10 of a creatures HP at almost anytime after it has taken a few hits.

I have seen you post many times about this spike damage overkill being a waste and somehow a negative against large spike damages and critical hits. I don't think it is nearly as prominent as you make it about to be, its seems from your posts that you seem to believe that %25-35 of spike damage is wasted on overkill. I don't think its any where near that number, not even close. I don't even think its worth an argument on a topic.

 

[Hussar]

But, [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION], I'm not sure that too many people are saying this is an issue. Paladins are really good at what they do. Not particularly over powered, just really good. Which, IMO, tends to shine a lot of light on classes that might not be as good as they possibly should be.

Think about it this way. If paladins were really as good as that, wouldn't we see a lot more of them being played? On the WotC surveys, Pally's came in 5th, behind the "core 4". The FiveThirtyEight poll puts paladins in 6th place, again behind the core 4 and barbarians (although barbarians might have made the list simply due to alphabetical order). [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION]'s polls about class satisfaction found here peg Paladins as one of the two classes with the most satisfied customers.

Combine all that and you have a lot of very happy players who apparently like the class they chose. Compare to say, (again, sorry) fighter players where 30% say they weren't very happy, (only Sorcerer and Ranger players score higher here) and it's pretty easy to see why people point fingers at paladins as the problem.

 

[Mistwell]

No, you know approximately the HP of anything you meet, and then you track all the damage it has taken it has taken, and your DM will describe the condition to you also. From experience I can tell within %5-10 of a creatures HP at almost anytime after it has taken a few hits.

This does not match my experience, at all. For 35 years of playing, in a variety of games and groups, we'e never ever commonly known approximate hit points, and certainly not within 5% of their hit points. If that's how your games go, cool, but it's nothing like my experience.

I have seen you post many times about this spike damage overkill being a waste and somehow a negative against large spike damages and critical hits. I don't think it is nearly as prominent as you make it about to be, its seems from your posts that you seem to believe that %25-35 of spike damage is wasted on overkill. I don't think its any where near that number, not even close. I don't even think its worth an argument on a topic.

Our experiences vary wildly. I have no idea if my experience is representative or not. But, I am betting you don't know either. I am certainly not the only person who has mentioned the overkill issue. Many others here have mentioned it, though that also doesn't make it representative of anything.