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D&D 5E Reliable Talent. What the what?

ro

First Post
cthulhu42 said:
They're not fighting dragons every day. There is down time. It's not that he needs to break into houses, it's that he WILL. And that's totally ok. There just needs to be some small element of danger. Otherwise it's just me handing him a list of loot.

What if you changed it to making the total a minimum of 10 rather than the roll? Then a +13 score, roll 1, would be a minimum of 14, but a +5 score, roll 1 - 4, would be a minimum of 10.

Reliable Talent

By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a total of 9 or lower as a 10.

If that is too much, you could change the minimum to 15:

Reliable Talent

By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a total of 14 or lower as a 15.
 

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Tormyr

Hero
What if you changed it to making the total a minimum of 10 rather than the roll? Then a +13 score, roll 1, would be a minimum of 14, but a +5 score, roll 1 - 4, would be a minimum of 10.

Reliable Talent

By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a total of 9 or lower as a 10.

If that is too much, you could change the minimum to 15:

Reliable Talent

By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a total of 14 or lower as a 15.

That makes the feature worth less as the character advances. By 11th level, most rogues will have a +9 to Dexterity skills they care about and +13 to the Dexterity skills they really care about. So if the feature was changed to be a total of 10 versus 10 on die, it would do nothing for the Dexterity-based skills. A roll of 1 would end up as a 10 with or without the feature. For expertise in that situation, the second option (minimum total 15) would make the feature take a roll of 1 and turn it into a 2. The end result is that it does nothing for good skills and makes the non-Dexterity skills that the rogue has proficiency a little better.

It doesn't seem like the best solution to me personally.
 

5ekyu

Hero
At the point the rogue gets reliable talent, it's not mundane tasks or hard tasks, it's medium tasks and hard tasks. A few levels later it's hard tasks and very hard tasks (at proficiency +5). With a few common magic items. some skills turn into no chance of failure at DC 30 tasks (gloves of thievery, I'm looking at you).

I get where you're coming from, and you've a cogent argument, but it's not helping that you're consistently attempting to diminish the argument unfairly.
You seem to be assuming expertise in those figures not just normal proficiency. Expertise is a smaller number.

Fly beats any difficulty jump check for quite a while. Invisibility beats a lot of stealth checks. Open lock gets you past locks of any dc iirc.

Simple fact is this... If your rogue pc deciding to steal from peons without any protections against 12th level characters is an ACTUAL problem in your game, ask yourself what the other 12th level rogues are doing while he is there and why did the 12th level sorc or barbarians leave him anything to find?



Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This has never registered as a problem to me because so many tasks are already automatic passes or fails anyway. I never ask for a roll unless the task has a reasonable chance of success, a reasonable chance of failure, and a consequence for failure. If your rogue didn’t have reliable talent, but still had his 20 Dexterity, +4 Proficiency Bonus, and Expertise with Thieves’ Tools, what’s stopping him from picking every lock with a DC 23 or below anyway? Do you not allow players to take 10 when they have no time pressure? Heck, even 33 or below, unless there’s something preventing him from trying over and over again until he succeeds, he’ll eventually roll what ever target number he needs. During uptime there are usually complicating factors that prevent characters from taking as much time as they need on tasks, but if you’re handwaving that away on the basis of “what if he wants to rob a town blind during downtime?” then what was stopping him from doing that before? And anyway, at level 12, this rogue should be a grey mouser type legendary thief. He should be able to rob entire towns in his downtime, that’s the fantasy people play rouges for.

At the end of the day, Reliable Talent just allows high level rogues to take 10 even under pressure. That’s nice, but it’s not game-Breaking by any means.

I don't allow taking 10, no. It's not in the rules. If you're going to allow unlimited retries, don't roll, just pick a time window it takes and move on.

If I ask for a roll, and you fail it, there's a consequence. If I ask for a roll on a lock and you fail it, you've either damaged the lock, increasing the DC or preventing it's picking at all, or broken your tool, or some other appropriate failure. I no longer run in a way that allows 'you failed, try again.' That's boring.

My issue with reliable talent is that it badly interacts with expertise and that it's a sudden, massive improvement in skill execution. A rogue with a +13 check goes from failing a DC 23 check 45% of the time to never failing it in one jump. I'd prefer a shallower improvement curve. Also, it completely defeats the advantage/disadvantage paradigm, which I find poor design. That same character trying a DC 23 check with disadvantage goes from a 70% chance of failure to a 0% chance of failure at the same task with reliable talent. Don't like

Secondly to the above, it's a kinda hidden boost -- it doesn't appear on a read over of the class to be as strong as it is, and so new DMs that are crossing the 12th level line for the first time engage in a sudden bit of shock when it shows up and obviates entire classes of challenges that were, just a moment ago, still part of a fun adventure.

Can I build around it? Sure, if I distort a bit of my fiction, and, hey, what about D&D doesn't distort the fiction. But, if you're not planning on it from the get go, it's a pretty big and sudden distortion. Locks go from something that present a minor challenge to something that presents no challenge, suddenly. Dealing with that along with learning to run higher level games at the same time is a pretty big hit in the cognitive balance area. I dealt with it the first time as an experienced DM with a bit of trouble, but got over it quickly on my own and adjusted my game. In my current game, I've instituted the above houserule about disadvantage, but otherwise left it alone. The player, mostly, chooses to engage disadvantage or not, so it's on them, not me, and that seems fair.

As for a easy fix for locks and the rogue cleaning out small towns -- most people can't afford locks, but they can afford to bar their doors. And you cannot pick a bar on a door. Depending on construction, and where the bar is latched or not, it may still be easy to undo, but you can wildly vary that effort with better construction or a latch on the bar rather than trying to justify wildly out of place and expensive locks. Also, it's difficult to remove a bar quietly.
 

ro

First Post
What if Reliable Talent granted advantage instead?

Reliable Talent

By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you have advantage on that check.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You seem to be assuming expertise in those figures not just normal proficiency. Expertise is a smaller number.

Fly beats any difficulty jump check for quite a while. Invisibility beats a lot of stealth checks. Open lock gets you past locks of any dc iirc.

Simple fact is this... If your rogue pc deciding to steal from peons without any protections against 12th level characters is an ACTUAL problem in your game, ask yourself what the other 12th level rogues are doing while he is there and why did the 12th level sorc or barbarians leave him anything to find?



Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app

No, the medium tasks are for non-expertise and the hard tasks are for expertise skills. The very hard are expertise skills, but you're yet to identify the reasoning that has a rogue player picking skills for reliable talent under different criteria than the skills he picked for expertise.

Fly expends a resource, one that could have been a fireball. Invisibility doesn't, in fact, beat any stealth checks; it allows stealth checks. Knock also expends a resource and creates a clearly audible knock up to 300' away, hardly a stealthy action.

We aren't really talking about peons, though, are we? In a small town, the targets you hit are merchants, not farmers, and even they can't afford very hard difficulty locks or magical seals very well. Plus, they carry a good deal of coin or goods that are valuable, so it's not pocket change we're really talking about. If you have a small town that your rogue rolls through and robs with impunity and comes up with only a few 100 gold, I'm asking what kind of plague or war is currently raging on the streets.

And, actually, the fact that other level 12 NPC rogues can do it as well exacerbates the problem in the fiction, it doesn't solve or ameliorate it. You now get to come up with reasons they aren't making enough money to live extravagantly knocking over the occasional D&D version of a small bank every other week. You can do this, certainly (and I have), but pretending it's a trivial effort is ridiculous.
 

clutchbone

First Post
Oooh man, I'd be quite grumpy if my DM messed with my Reliable Talent. It's a cornerstone of the class.

Like others have said, players are international heroes at level 12. These guys are Jason Bourne and James Bond; picking 9/10 locks, lying with impunity, and effortlessly sneaking by sentries is what they do. Hardware store locks, even the expensive ones, aren't supposed to stop them.
 
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ad_hoc

(they/them)
If Reliable Talent makes your challenges trivial you should either:

Change entirely the scale/scope of your challenges. At 11th level the party should be facing fantastic challenges. Gone are mundane locks, the need to scale buildings, etc.

or

Declare the campaign a victory and start again at level 1 if you don't like the idea of delving into a fantastical high magic campaign.


Personally, 11th level is where I stop. The characters get 1 adventure at 11th level to showcase all that they've become. Then we start over because I don't like the genre that high level necessitates.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I don't allow taking 10, no. It's not in the rules.
I mean, me either - usually in a situation where taking 10 would be appropriate, it’d be better to just let the action succeed.
If you're going to allow unlimited retries, don't roll, just pick a time window it takes and move on.

If I ask for a roll, and you fail it, there's a consequence. If I ask for a roll on a lock and you fail it, you've either damaged the lock, increasing the DC or preventing it's picking at all, or broken your tool, or some other appropriate failure. I no longer run in a way that allows 'you failed, try again.' That's boring.
My point exactly. So, unless there’s a source of pressure, you shouldn’t be rolling to pick locks most of the time anyway. A locked door with no complicating factors to make trying to pick it a risk isn’t an obstacle, it’s set dressing. And if you’re already putting complicating factors in your campaigns to make picking locks risky, it shouldn’t be too hard to ramp those factors up for characters who can reliably achieve an average roll result under pressure. Frankly, as a DM, you should be designing around the expectation of characters reliably being able to achieve average results anyway.

Also, side note, speaking of things that aren’t in the rules, locks and tools being damaged or broken on a failed Dexterity check sure is one of them.

My issue with reliable talent is that it badly interacts with expertise and that it's a sudden, massive improvement in skill execution. A rogue with a +13 check goes from failing a DC 23 check 45% of the time to never failing it in one jump. I'd prefer a shallower improvement curve. Also, it completely defeats the advantage/disadvantage paradigm, which I find poor design. That same character trying a DC 23 check with disadvantage goes from a 70% chance of failure to a 0% chance of failure at the same task with reliable talent. Don't like
A rogue has a pretty limited number of expertise skills. Four, to be precise, or three plus thieves’ tools. And it also doesn’t do anything to increase the difficulty of tasks the rogue can succeed at, it just removes the risk of failure at things they already had a 50% chance or better at succeeding. Picking four skills you can count on to always succeed at tasks below Very Difficult DCs seems like a perfectly reasonable feature for a 3rd-tier Skill monkey to me.

Secondly to the above, it's a kinda hidden boost -- it doesn't appear on a read over of the class to be as strong as it is, and so new DMs that are crossing the 12th level line for the first time engage in a sudden bit of shock when it shows up and obviates entire classes of challenges that were, just a moment ago, still part of a fun adventure.
I guess? Again, I feel like this is only a problem if you weren’t already counting on the character to reliably be able to achieve average roll results. Which in my opinion you should have been. YMMV, I guess.

Can I build around it? Sure, if I distort a bit of my fiction, and, hey, what about D&D doesn't distort the fiction. But, if you're not planning on it from the get go, it's a pretty big and sudden distortion. Locks go from something that present a minor challenge to something that presents no challenge, suddenly. Dealing with that along with learning to run higher level games at the same time is a pretty big hit in the cognitive balance area. I dealt with it the first time as an experienced DM with a bit of trouble, but got over it quickly on my own and adjusted my game. In my current game, I've instituted the above houserule about disadvantage, but otherwise left it alone. The player, mostly, chooses to engage disadvantage or not, so it's on them, not me, and that seems fair.

As for a easy fix for locks and the rogue cleaning out small towns -- most people can't afford locks, but they can afford to bar their doors. And you cannot pick a bar on a door. Depending on construction, and where the bar is latched or not, it may still be easy to undo, but you can wildly vary that effort with better construction or a latch on the bar rather than trying to justify wildly out of place and expensive locks. Also, it's difficult to remove a bar quietly.
Cool, sounds like you’ve got a fix that works for your game. Glad to hear it.
 
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