D&D 5E Reliable Talent. What the what?

[5ekyu]

Everything you mention, except the cantrip, requires a spell slot. Reliable Talent requires no expenditure of resources.

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Yes absolutely but notice one spell slot is not the equivalent of an 11th level ability. What do say many casters get at 11th level? Access to sixth level spells. Rogue gets good skill check minimums for his proficient skill checks and wizard gets access to sixth level spells. There are difference to be sure, but the issue of auto beat locks or auto hide was started back at 3rd, not 11th. Especially if the worry are his expertise skills.



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[5ekyu]

Guys, the first section of HotDQ got flack for being too difficult for a newbie party. The reverse is also true. If you are running adventures were your 12th level character needs to break into houses and is being challenged by a mundane watchman you are bound to run into frustration as a DM.

I'm not gonna say you are doing it wrong, because the PC police here will jump down my throat, but at that level you HAVE GOT to raise the ante in your adventures.

Yup

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[cthulhu42]

Guys, the first section of HotDQ got flack for being too difficult for a newbie party. The reverse is also true. If you are running adventures were your 12th level character needs to break into houses and is being challenged by a mundane watchman you are bound to run into frustration as a DM.

I'm not gonna say you are doing it wrong, because the PC police here will jump down my throat, but at that level you HAVE GOT to raise the ante in your adventures.

They're not fighting dragons every day. There is down time. It's not that he needs to break into houses, it's that he WILL. And that's totally ok. There just needs to be some small element of danger. Otherwise it's just me handing him a list of loot.

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[Coroc]

[MENTION=6792361]cthulhu42[/MENTION] Now you know how i feel about flying and teleport at will powers in some scenarios. Or those guys who totally would allow monks in a darksun setting.

 

[cthulhu42]

Yes absolutely but notice one spell slot is not the equivalent of an 11th level ability. What do say many casters get at 11th level? Access to sixth level spells. Rogue gets good skill check minimums for his proficient skill checks and wizard gets access to sixth level spells. There are difference to be sure, but the issue of auto beat locks or auto hide was started back at 3rd, not 11th. Especially if the worry are his expertise skills.



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Resource expenditure is resource expenditure. I'm not asking them to equal out. It just seems like any given ability ought to either have a cost that limits its use, or a chance (even a very small one) to fail.

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[5ekyu]

They're not fighting dragons every day. There is down time. It's not that he needs to break into houses, it's that he WILL. And that's totally ok. There just needs to be some small element of danger. Otherwise it's just me handing him a list of loot.

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Yes, so... A 11th level character *should* be able to look at a small town level of "challenge" as "free loot" but also, frankly, trivial loot. Or have you nerfed the spell lists? Look, lets do it this way... Take a 11th level wiz and slot up for "get loot from peons" and i bet you find a lot of ways they cam avoid any real risk.

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[5ekyu]

Resource expenditure is resource expenditure. I'm not asking them to equal out. It just seems like any given ability ought to either have a cost that limits its use, or a chance (even a very small one) to fail.

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Look "it just seems like..." Is not something that can be argued with any more than "butter pecan is better than mint chocolate chip" so, hey, go for it.

But outside of personal tastes on game design, "mundane stuff as challenges" are blown way more and way sooner by other classes than it is by reliable talent.

But, also, this does get back to setting.

How was this handled in your setting in the decades before this rogue?

Or are all small towns gutted by rogues looking for some pocket change cuz thats their downtime preferences?

If your setting makes this a desirable downtime for your rogue, doesnt he get there and find the copper jar empty cuz three others got there?

Or... Does the lord who rules over this land have contongencies for these things?

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[cthulhu42]

Yes, so... A 11th level character *should* be able to look at a small town level of "challenge" as "free loot" but also, frankly, trivial loot. Or have you nerfed the spell lists? Look, lets do it this way... Take a 11th level wiz and slot up for "get loot from peons" and i bet you find a lot of ways they cam avoid any real risk.

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That's a valid point.

And honestly, I'm not worried about the loot he might get. It's the story telling aspect that bothers me. There must be some challenge, some drama, some cost, or what's the point? Isn't the whole point of bounded accuracy that even trivial challenges have some small chance of going sideways?

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[5ekyu]

That's a valid point.

And honestly, I'm not worried about the loot he might get. It's the story telling aspect that bothers me. There must be some challenge, some drama, some cost, or what's the point? Isn't the whole point of bounded accuracy that even trivial challenges have some small chance of going sideways?

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Again with the butter pecan design flavor heads on a pin thing... No the whole point of bounded accuracy is that logic is a flower that smells bad and looks pretty.

This sounds less like a "problem" now in play as it does a constructed conundrum where if you take this add that theory and throw in that mechanic we construct a arguing point.

As others have said, practically speaking, your drama and story excitement and challenges at that point are going to have to be different for 12th than 3rd etc.

The "point" of reliable talent is... That very fact. At 11th, rogue can reliably overcome a small number (prof skills) of mundane level tasks and a smaller number of hard ones (expertise skills).

Just like many other abilities have given other characters similar "new challenges needed" capability.

Think of it this way, we all know tasks too easy to have a chance of fail require no roll as per the book... Well RT says the same thing but raises that bar for a few tasks.




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[Ovinomancer]

Yes, so... A 11th level character *should* be able to look at a small town level of "challenge" as "free loot" but also, frankly, trivial loot. Or have you nerfed the spell lists? Look, lets do it this way... Take a 11th level wiz and slot up for "get loot from peons" and i bet you find a lot of ways they cam avoid any real risk.

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Have you tried this? Whatever you build as the spellcaster, it has chances of failure (saving throw DCs aren't guaranteed even with low stat peons) and expends resources. The rogue doesn't. That's the complaint.

To the OP, if you're running a sandbox style campaign, then, yes, this ability can be very disruptive. If, however, you're pacing the game according to the PCs, then the ability is much more manageable -- you just have to assume the rogue succeeds at these challenges or have reasons for higher-than-automatic-DCs. The player did invest a build choice in the ability, so make sure the spotlight turns on their ease of success at these tasks from time to time, don't just ignore them.

If you're looking for a nerf, though, might I suggest not allowing Reliable Talent to function on any roll that has disadvantage? I add that I usually limit advantage/disadvantage on skills to choices the player makes, and modify DCs for environmental or enemy action, that way the choice to suffer disadvantage rests with the player. I usually offer the ability to speed up a check or overextend at disadvantage.