D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[ECMO3]

No. Read the DMG. SOME NPCs are monsters, but only those you give monster stat blocks. Giving the NPC a monster stat block is 1 of 3 ways to make an NPC.

The NPC I am talking about is not subject to any monster "rule."

Go read the definition of "monster" posted by JG above.

"A Monster is any creature that can be interacted with, potentially fought with and killed .... The term also applies to Humans, Elves, Dwarves and other civilized folk"

The example you gave, was a creature, had hit points and presumably could be killed, so yes it is a monster. I guess something like an Unseen Servant or a major image could be an NPC that is not a monster, because those are not creatures.

 

[Pauln6]

Go read the definition of "monster" posted by JG above.

"A Monster is any creature that can be interacted with, potentially fought with and killed .... The term also applies to Humans, Elves, Dwarves and other civilized folk"

The example you gave, was a creature, had hit points and presumably could be killed, so yes it is a monster. I guess something like an Unseen Servant or a major image could be an NPC that is not a monster, because those are not creatures.

That's a weird hill to die on since a DM can decide a little old man with +12 in baking and no combat skill, that has never been in a fight in his life, can be killed automatically without the need to roll initiative, attack roll, and damage. If he is just a social encounter, or a skill challenge (using its general meaning), then he's an NPC, whether the PCs decide to kill him or not. They get XP for the challenge, not XP for killing someone who is no threat.

 

[Maxperson]

Go read the definition of "monster" posted by JG above.

"A Monster is any creature that can be interacted with, potentially fought with and killed .... The term also applies to Humans, Elves, Dwarves and other civilized folk"

The example you gave, was a creature, had hit points and presumably could be killed, so yes it is a monster. I guess something like an Unseen Servant or a major image could be an NPC that is not a monster, because those are not creatures.

I don't care what that definition is. The DMG says otherwise and specific beats general. Read the NPC section.

 

[Yaarel]

No. Read the DMG. SOME NPCs are monsters, but only those you give monster stat blocks. Giving the NPC a monster stat block is 1 of 3 ways to make an NPC.

The NPC I am talking about is not subject to any monster "rule."

I go by a defacto definition.

Any creature with a statblock is a "monster".

Any creature with a player character sheet, using rules from the Players Handbook, is a "character".

Thus NPCs with their statblocks can be called "monsters", or at least have their entries organized with monsters. It might be reasonable to separate "Humanoids" as a separate list within the Monster Manual, similar to Beasts as a separate list.


The main difference between "monsters" and "characters" is, the monster statblocks arent required to conform to character rules. They can have any feature that seems appropriate and can dismiss any rule that seems inconvenient for a brief encounter.

 

[Pauln6]

I go by a defacto definition.

Any creature with a statblock is a "monster".

Any creature with a player character sheet, using rules from the Players Handbook, is a "character".

Thus NPCs with their statblocks can be called "monsters", or at least have their entries organized with monsters. It might be reasonable to separate "Humanoids" as a separate list within the Monster Manual, similar to Beasts as a separate list.


The main difference between "monsters" and "characters" is, the monster statblocks arent required to conform to character rules. They can have any feature that seems appropriate and can dismiss any rule that seems inconvenient for a brief encounter.

Of course, you can do that, but then if you have an issue with there being no way to create a skilled NPC in the monster building rules, it's a problem that's entirely of your own making. Actually, there are also ways to build them as monsters if you want. The 3e expert class was an unnecessarily complicated way of doing it but you could take the commoner stats, pick the stat you need and make it 14, and give them an ability called Master X... +5 on all rolls associated with X and you have advantage on the roll if you have your X tools.

 

[ECMO3]

That's a weird hill to die on since a DM can decide a little old man with +12 in baking and no combat skill, that has never been in a fight in his life, can be killed automatically without the need to roll initiative, attack roll, and damage.

But it would need to be at least CR 9 to get a +12 and it would be more than a little math to make it a CR9.

I guess if you made a baker with a 26 in an ability you could do it, but that is a little ridiculous.

If he is just a social encounter, or a skill challenge (using its general meaning), then he's an NPC, whether the PCs decide to kill him or not. They get XP for the challenge, not XP for killing someone who is no threat.

I am not saying they get XP for the challange, but the creature, including an NPC, still has a Challange rating.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't care what that definition is. The DMG says otherwise and specific beats general. Read the NPC section.

now you don't care what the definition is, while above you did care and insisted they were not a monster?

The DMG has specific rules about how to determine NPC statistics and you are not using them. That is fine, but it does not mean they don't exist.

 

[Pauln6]

But it would need to be at least CR 9 to get a +12 and it would be more than a little math to make it a CR9.

I guess if you made a baker with a 26 in an ability you could do it, but that is a little ridiculous.



I am not saying they get XP for the challange, but the creature, including an NPC, still has a Challange rating.

Lol. No a Baker is CR0. He has int or wis 12-14. He has the trait Master Baker +5 on all skill rolls involving cookery, all rolls of 2-9 are considered to be 10 so his minimum roll that isn't 1 is 16-17, enough to cover off even a hard bakery challenge. Plus if he has his chef's tools, he gets advantage. Why on Oerth would he ever need +12 on his skill roll?

 

[Maxperson]

now you don't care what the definition is, while above you did care and insisted they were not a monster?

Because they aren't. That definition simply does not apply to the specific NPC "rules."

The DMG has specific rules about how to determine NPC statistics and you are not using them. That is fine, but it does not mean they don't exist.

Yes I am using them.

Page 89

"An NPC doesn't need combat statistics unless it poses a threat. Moreover, most NPCs need only one or two qualities to make them memorable. For example, your players will have no trouble remembering the no-nonsense blacksmith with the tattoo of the black rose on his right shoulder."

A cook isn't a threat, yet like the blacksmith there he will have skill at his profession.

Further, if I want more detailed statistics for the NPC there is page 92

"When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels. The latter two options require a bit of explanation."

Option number one allows me to give +12 to cooking tools and that's it. Since the cook isn't a threat and doesn't need combat stats, I don't need to go with a stat block or a class and levels. I can simply give it the few statistics he needs(+12 to cooking tools) and be done with it.

Your argument that every master chef or blacksmith can also take on dragons solo because they are CR 9 doesn't hold water. And that definition that @James Gasik found only applies to the second option and maaaaaybe the third option.

 

[Maxperson]

I go by a defacto definition.

Any creature with a statblock is a "monster".

Any creature with a player character sheet, using rules from the Players Handbook, is a "character".

Thus NPCs with their statblocks can be called "monsters", or at least have their entries organized with monsters. It might be reasonable to separate "Humanoids" as a separate list within the Monster Manual, similar to Beasts as a separate list.


The main difference between "monsters" and "characters" is, the monster statblocks arent required to conform to character rules. They can have any feature that seems appropriate and can dismiss any rule that seems inconvenient for a brief encounter.

Which is fine, but none of that applies to the 1st way to make NPCs. NPCs require no stat block, levels or anything else to have a +12 at a skill. I can in fact make an NPC with nothing more than that and it won't be a monster.