D&D 5E The Bard's Inspiration Die...

[5ekyu]

I guess the best way to look at it would be an example like this:

The Bard and party are fighting. The Bard looks over to the Warrior who is facing a 2 vs 1.

The Bard speaks, "Don't worry, Jerry! You can do this, you got this, bro!"

Jerry feels inspired by the Bard's words of encouragement.

Jerry can now add 1d6 to any 1 attack roll or saving throw within the next 10 minutes.

I still feel like the Bard should have a multi-person one, even if it's a die-grade lower, and a 1 minute duration.

Like for example if the Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard are all fighting multiple opponents and are near each other.

The Bard speaks, "Don't worry, Ted, Jerry, and Vanessa, we got this! We've faced far worse before and have come out on top!"

Ted, Jerry, and Vanessa can now add 1d4 to any 1 attack roll or saving throw within the next minute.

But...

1 - the bard does have that ability - it just takes more actions. What you are asking about is the ability to use all at once losing only one bonus action. A quick look thru all the various things bonus actions can be used for shows the gains here are more than just the spread of the dice but the gain over the combat of two-four bonus action uses in cases where you wait until combat to use it.

"hey, its the big boss, not just another skirmish so... i use my bonus action this turn and everybody gets a inspire die" vs "...i use my bonus action for the next 5 rounds to give bonus die" is a massive difference, considering both the delay in some getting their inspire dice and your own loss of bonus actions over the next 4 rounds.

See, by keeping the attention on the dice and the gain, you are distracting from the real impact and improvement: getting a multi-target spread and the massive gains in the action economy and timing.

i mean, hopw often is it that the first couple of rounds are where some of the biggest effects get to flying? how often is it that for a combat where it matters you don't need to use a one-use bonus in the first 10 rounds but need it in the next 10 minutes?

2 - With the decision made after roll but before result - the difference between a d4 and a d6 is rather trivial. On any given combo of roll vs DC vs circumstance... it can be huge or not but as a general bonus in the player's control - the net result of getting everybody a d4 option from round one is YUGE compared to the gaining of a d6 one by one over three rounds.

Its basically a change which says "bards get extra bonus action uses" for any case where they would want to help more than one person combined with "bards get to cover everyone more quickly" in similar circumstances.

i bet most any fighter in the game would take "drop d10 to d8 for your second wind uses but you can use them all one one bonus action."

i doubt i would even allow this big a gain in actions and yield for a class already performing at par at least even with a feat.

Would you allow a caster to take a feat which said "on one turn you can cast as many spells regardless of actions up to your casting bonus if tye use a spell slot higher without the normal up-slot gain"?

Thats not just a shift in cosmetic sense but a serious nova potential and a serious edge for the "boss fifhgt" outputs.

to me, allowing a one-use all-expended option shifts the bardic inspiration heavily into a "best held for one big fight bursty" thing in a YUGE way (saves multiple bonus actions) while the requiring bonus action for each gives you more of a "use it along the way" feel which lets the bard inspire be more of an ongoing thing - not a nova must for the first round of a boss fight.

 

[5ekyu]

I guess the best way to look at it would be an example like this:

The Bard and party are fighting. The Bard looks over to the Warrior who is facing a 2 vs 1.

The Bard speaks, "Don't worry, Jerry! You can do this, you got this, bro!"

Jerry feels inspired by the Bard's words of encouragement.

Jerry can now add 1d6 to any 1 attack roll or saving throw within the next 10 minutes.

I still feel like the Bard should have a multi-person one, even if it's a die-grade lower, and a 1 minute duration.

Like for example if the Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard are all fighting multiple opponents and are near each other.

The Bard speaks, "Don't worry, Ted, Jerry, and Vanessa, we got this! We've faced far worse before and have come out on top!"

Ted, Jerry, and Vanessa can now add 1d4 to any 1 attack roll or saving throw within the next minute.

But...

1 - the bard does have that ability - it just takes more actions. What you are asking about is the ability to use all at once losing only one bonus action. A quick look thru all the various things bonus actions can be used for shows the gains here are more than just the spread of the dice but the gain over the combat of two-four bonus action uses in cases where you wait until combat to use it.

"hey, its the big boss, not just another skirmish so... i use my bonus action this turn and everybody gets a inspire die" vs "...i use my bonus action for the next 5 rounds to give bonus die" is a massive difference, considering both the delay in some getting their inspire dice and your own loss of bonus actions over the next 4 rounds.

See, by keeping the attention on the dice and the gain, you are distracting from the real impact and improvement: getting a multi-target spread and the massive gains in the action economy and timing.

i mean, hopw often is it that the first couple of rounds are where some of the biggest effects get to flying? how often is it that for a combat where it matters you don't need to use a one-use bonus in the first 10 rounds but need it in the next 10 minutes?

2 - With the decision made after roll but before result - the difference between a d4 and a d6 is rather trivial. On any given combo of roll vs DC vs circumstance... it can be huge or not but as a general bonus in the player's control - the net result of getting everybody a d4 option from round one is YUGE compared to the gaining of a d6 one by one over three rounds.

Its basically a change which says "bards get extra bonus action uses" for any case where they would want to help more than one person combined with "bards get to cover everyone more quickly" in similar circumstances.

i bet most any fighter in the game would take "drop d10 to d8 for your second wind uses but you can use them all one one bonus action."

i doubt i would even allow this big a gain in actions and yield for a class already performing at par at least even with a feat.

Would you allow a caster to take a feat which said "on one turn you can cast as many spells regardless of actions up to your casting bonus if tye use a spell slot higher without the normal up-slot gain"?

Thats not just a shift in cosmetic sense but a serious nova potential and a serious edge for the "boss fifhgt" outputs.

to me, allowing a one-use all-expended option shifts the bardic inspiration heavily into a "best held for one big fight bursty" thing in a YUGE way (saves multiple bonus actions) while the requiring bonus action for each gives you more of a "use it along the way" feel which lets the bard inspire be more of an ongoing thing - not a nova must for the first round of a boss fight.

 

[Satyrn]

Okay, on the mechanics.

I still feel like the Bard should have a multi-person one, even if it's a die-grade lower, and a 1 minute duration.

As a personal quirk, reducing the die-grade rubs me the wrong way. If my Inspiration Die is a d6, it should always be a d6. So I'd want to see the feature balanced a different way.

How does this sound:
-It affects all allies within 30 feet.
-it requires an action by tbe bard.
-the allies must use their die by the start of the bard's next turn.

It's more of a momentary, widespread push.

 

[Wiseblood]

The bardic inspiration should in no way be inferior to the paladins aura. It requires an action and has limited uses it also only targets one. Full caster with the potential for crossover spells is the only reason I would touch a bard in 5e. It completely fails imo.

 

[5ekyu]

The bardic inspiration should in no way be inferior to the paladins aura. It requires an action and has limited uses it also only targets one. Full caster with the potential for crossover spells is the only reason I would touch a bard in 5e. It completely fails imo.

i have found comparing one isolated ability (ingredient) in one class (recipe) with another isolated ability (ingredient) in another class (recipe) to yield poor results as far as expectations and balance (taste) - since classes (recipes) are large packages of things designed to be balanced (tasty) as a whole, not on an ingredient by ingredient level. A recipe can have less salt added as its own ingredient than another but still be more salty when the other ingredients are added in.

Dang, just realized, i skipped lunch.

later.

 

[Staffan]

The bardic inspiration should in no way be inferior to the paladins aura. It requires an action and has limited uses it also only targets one. Full caster with the potential for crossover spells is the only reason I would touch a bard in 5e. It completely fails imo.

Bardic Inspiration is not "inferior" to paladin auras. Yes, it is more limited in its use, but it is a lot more flexible: you don't have to be adjacent to the bard to get it, you can use it on pretty much anything, and you can get it ahead of time ("Hey Lidda, why don't you go scout ahead a while, here's an inspiration die in case you need it.").

 

[ad_hoc]

The bardic inspiration should in no way be inferior to the paladins aura. It requires an action and has limited uses it also only targets one. Full caster with the potential for crossover spells is the only reason I would touch a bard in 5e. It completely fails imo.

It's not an action, it's a Bonus Action (or with Lore Bard a Reaction).

Bardic Inspiration is inferior to Rage, but that doesn't mean it's a bad ability.

 

[jayoungr]

Buffing the whole party with a single action is something 5E is pretty clearly trying to reduce, as compared with 3.X.

 

[ad_hoc]

Buffing the whole party with a single action is something 5E is pretty clearly trying to reduce, as compared with 3.X.

Yeah. Bless is a standout here but does take an action and concentration.

This proposed change is a big buff to the entire party for only a bonus action.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Maybe I'm off base, but I think the idea of a bard being able to inspire more than one person at a time sounds like a bardic ability. I mean a 1st level cleric spell can do it to more people for a longer than just one use.

I suggest keeping number of inspiration uses the same, but allowing the ability to affect multiple allies at the same time as an option (maybe delay that upgrade and make it part of Font of Inspiration); but with multiple allies affected it is no longer a die roll, just a basic +1 to all allies, same time limit (maybe improve it slowly to +2 at 15th and eventually +3 at 20th).

For Cutting Words, I am unsure what would be appropriate, an across-the-board -1 to all opponents in range seems too powerful for a reaction which assumes instantly affected and not saved until they try something. So maybe Cutting Words doesn't need to be able to affect multiple opponents.

[Though I could see that as an even higher level ability (say 12th-15th level). By then, the bard's reputation should make his ability to demoralize his opponents legendary so that multiple opponents could be affected with a version of his cutting words (at a lesser effect than his full inspiration because the effect is diffused into more than one opponent. This use would also become a bonus action instead of a reaction. A single die size shrinkage seems too little for this powerful ability which would still see use, but awaiting high level to gain the ability would make an across-the-board -1 seem uninspired. I suggest a -2 to opponent first attack rolls (only) to all opponents in range.]

Add a bit to the capstone ability that would improve this ability to Cha mod (minimum -3) as an additional capstone ability (as well as give the ability to bards without Cutting Words). (If you have no uses of inspiration left when you roll initiative, regain 1 use, which though powerful seems really blah for 20th level: "if you weren't able to take a short rest and regain all your inspiration uses, we'll give you one (single target) use". Compare to Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Any Paladin Oath, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard capstone.