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D&D 5E Why the fixation with getting rid of everything but fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard?

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
For your question on the cloistered cleric, yes.
Cool.

I've always assumed there's what amount to stay-at-home non-adventuring versions of most classes: cloistered clerics, lab mages, street thieves, town militia, etc. I've never seen much point to writing them up (and certainly not as their own separate classes) as they don't adventure in the game sense of the term, and if one did it'd just become the normal version of its class.

A shaman is a primal medium and a spirit user, which is very different from a druid. A witch is a mystic fortune teller or any number of other things.
Sounds like these could easily be folded into one. :)

The simple truth is there are tons of ways you can differentiate classes. The ways that the official classes are distinguished are arbitrary. What distinguishes a paladin from the fighter? Only what WotC says it does.
Yes there's lots of ways to differentiate classes if one looks for them...but I'd rather kinda do the opposite, and look for ways - particularly for the casting classes - in which they can be blended, such as the Witch-Shaman example above. In short I'd rather see a fifteen-class game than a 40-class game.

Also, I'll ban this drum one more time: not every differentiation between characters or even archetypes needs a baked in game-mechanical reflection. Consider a hypothetical Shaman class - it's a primal medium (i.e. neither divine nor arcane in its magic sourcing) but can be played as a spirit guide, a mystic, a fortune teller or diviner, or any number of other things depending on the personality and characterization (and spell selection?) its player gives it. Much like the way one can currently play a Fighter as a heavy tank or a swashbuckling duelist or a back-line archer - they all run on the same chassis but all play very differently.

Lan-"then, depending on whether a particular DM sees Druids as divine (Nature Clerics) or non-divine (primal media) the Shaman class could then be melded into Druid"-efan
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Can you make a wizard that flies on a broom, uses curses and heals, and belongs to a coven that specializes in using circle magic?
No, but you can make a tired old stereotype that really needs to go away and stay there.

But, if you really insist on playing that stereotype you can fairly easily get there by starting on the Druid chassis, bringing back the "Combine" spell from 1e (which is a surprisingly excellent mechanical representation of circle magic), and finding or buying or commissioning a flying broom.

Simple, huh? :)

Lanefan
 

Einlanzer0

Explorer
No, but you can make a tired old stereotype that really needs to go away and stay there.

But, if you really insist on playing that stereotype you can fairly easily get there by starting on the Druid chassis, bringing back the "Combine" spell from 1e (which is a surprisingly excellent mechanical representation of circle magic), and finding or buying or commissioning a flying broom.

Simple, huh? :)

Lanefan

It's not a stereotype, it's an iconic part of medieval fantasy. If new age Wiccans arbitrarily started calling themselves paladins, would we be having the same conversation about how the D&D paladin is such a stereotype? Yes, we would. Sheer silliness.

And, yes, not every concept needs to be reflected mechanically, but not every concept needs to not be reflected mechanically. Insinuating that it's somehow wrong to homebrew classes that are interesting enough for some people to want to homebrew is absurd.

And the absurdity of the official cleric class is that it insists the cleric is martially trained, when it's very easy to imagine an adventuring cleric that is not martially trained. But there are no cleric options that fill that concept, so it leaves those interested in having it to create it.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
And the absurdity of the official cleric class is that it insists the cleric is martially trained, when it's very easy to imagine an adventuring cleric that is not martially trained. But there are no cleric options that fill that concept, so it leaves those interested in having it to create it.

Check the Divine Soul.
 



It's not a stereotype, it's an iconic part of medieval fantasy.
Healing isn't part of the iconic fantasy witch toolset, aside from potions.

The iconic trappings of a fantasy witch are the broom, cauldron, and familiar - which is bog standard wizard stuff. Wizards have been summoning familiars, brewing potions, and crafting brooms of flying for decades. They traditionally cast curses (which wizards can also do in every edition), and work in groups of three (which is missing from the 5E ruleset primarily because you're unlikely to have three of the same type of spellcaster in the same group at the same time - it's not worth modeling).
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Baking variations on a base class from the get-go with Subclasses and Backgrounds: being able to multiply archetypes that way is brilliant.
Its not bad but...mechanically there's no difference between a class with three subclasses...and three closely-related classes. Similarly with races. It just creates a pseudo-choice point. Then you tack on ability scores, feats/ASI , hidden sub-sub-classes (e.g. Fighting Style), and there's a lot.

My point is that 5e, at times, seems to have more choice points than it really needs. Especially when some of those choices are pretty slim pickings.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Its not bad but...mechanically there's no difference between a class with three subclasses...and three closely-related classes. Similarly with races. It just creates a pseudo-choice point. Then you tack on ability scores, feats/ASI , hidden sub-sub-classes (e.g. Fighting Style), and there's a lot.

My point is that 5e, at times, seems to have more choice points than it really needs. Especially when some of those choices are pretty slim pickings.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app
Spread out choices, so that there is a choice at every level was an intentional design goal. In my experience, people find 12 Class options fairly overwhelming, it's much easier to take dozens of options when they are branching choices.
 

You create a new class when the reduction in effort on the player's part to create this class variant, combined with the popularity, and thus frequency, of the concept, outweighs the cost of development, balancing, and space within the physical book itself.

You have paladins because constructing a fighter to match what a paladin is, is too much work for too many people, and enough people want paladins that you know a ton of people are going to gripe about it.

You don't get mystic (yet) because the cost of constructing an entire new system for psionics, which isn't shared with any other classes, and adds a ton of weight to the book size, outweighs the relatively small population of players that want that play mechanic.

~

You start with Adventurer. Adventurer needs skills and magic and a combat system. Theoretically, the Adventurer class can be anything. Practically, it's not a functional starting point for a regular player, though.

So you break it apart into those who specialize in physical combat, and those who specialize in magical combat. Everyone uses skills, so you won't worry about that. And for simplicity, we'll call them Fighter and Mage.

This generally works, but is a bit bland, and you've barely scratched the surface of the different ideas for character types that players have had. You've got plenty of space left in the Player's Handbook, so you decide to expand a bit more.

Out of Fighter you carve the big beefy barbarian, the holy defender, and the sneaky thief type. Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue. Lots of people like these themes.

Out of Mage you carve out the holy priest, the studious researcher, and the guy who made a pact with the devil. Cleric, Wizard, Warlock. Lots of people like these themes.

You still have room, so you look a bit more. People like woodsy/pagan/back-to-nature stuff. You can put together a Ranger on the Fighter side, and a Druid on the Mage side.

Then you have those who were on a bit of a superhero bent, and they want a caster that just has natural magic. Sure. Sorcerer. But if you put that in, the people watching kung fu movies will want to bring in their Monk. So you say, sure, you can make that work.

Then someone comes in and says, "You know, we really need a Bard. There's way too many people that want a bard."

At this point you've kind of reached the limit of the number of pages you were allowed. And you go back and forth on what's really necessary to keep. You finally get convinced to OK the Bard, but you have to drop one of the other classes, and decide that the generic Mage really contributes the least, while you still need your Fighter for random NPC town guards. Plus, abstractly, you've kinda covered the gamut of what you need on the magic-using side with the existing classes (magic via research, innate ability, pact, and whatever the treehuggers do). Heck, Bard doesn't really add anything mechanically unique on the magic side.

~

So now you've added as many classes as you can fit in the book. 12 classes is already pushing things in complexity, too, number-wise. Any new class is going to have to prove its worth in page cost, or be popular enough to push one of the other classes out.

And then players come back in and say, "You know, you don't really need all these classes. It should be possible to derive them from a few simpler classes." And you say, "You know what, you're right. We don't need them. But they're really useful to a whole lot of players, especially the new ones, and we're aiming for ease and convenience for as many people as possible."

Then another group of players asks, "Where's Mystic? Where's Warlord? Where's Witch? Where's Shaman? Where's Artificer?" And you say, "Sorry, we don't have room for them. There's an actual, physical limit to how much we can put in the basic system. We love the ideas, but we'll have to wait til we can put in a dedicated supplement for that type of material. Til then, there's lots of ways to build what you want; the system is supposed to be flexible. Just ask your DM."

~

And thus, the (fictional) story of classes in D&D.
 

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