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Distract drop invisibility?

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
The game term would be "take an attack action". There's no reason to believe that the real world meaning of the word would not apply since there is no place where the words state that "as far as the game is concerned this is what we mean when we use the term attack". Yes, there are rules on how to resolve certain types of attacks, that does not mean that anything not covered by that section of the book would not be considered an attack.
OK great I understand that you don't see the combat section rules as applying here. That is a reason to explain why you don't feel it is necessary to play like me or Arial Black.

But it is not a reason to explain why you don't play like me or Arial. You say that the rules don't insist that "attack" is a game term. But they don't insist it is a natural term either. It seems to me that from your perspective either interpretation would be valid. So why isn't ours?
 
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Oofta

Legend
OK great I understand that you don't see the combat section rules as applying here. That is a reason to explain why you don't feel it is necessary to play like me or Arial Black.

But it is not a reason to explain why you don't play like me or Arial. You say that the rules don't insist that "attack" is a game term. But they don't insist it is a natural term either. It seems to me that from your perspective either interpretation would be valid. So why isn't ours?

Because as I've explained repeatedly it's just a ruling? Because I don't want this scenario:

DM: "You hear the mighty flap of a dragon's wings a moment before there's a great whoosh of fire. An invisible dragon attacks by breathing fire on you! Roll your dex save.".

Player: "Dang! I knew there were rumors the dragon was working with a wizard!"

[saving throws are rolled, damage resolved]

Player: "OK, I target the dragon with hold monster."

DM: "You can't, you don't see it."

Player: "Dang, Improved Invisibility? How high a level is that wizard?"

DM: "No, it's just regular invisibility. But he didn't attack because he didn't make an attack roll."

Player: "WTF? You just said he attacked by breathing fire on us?"

DM: "Oh, well he attacked you, but he didn't attack you."

Player: "???"​
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
The game term would be "take an attack action".

Rubbish! You don't need to take the Attack action in order to make an 'attack' (game term). Opportunity attacks, attack rolls from the Cast A Spell action when casting booming blade/green-flame blade, and so on. The Attack action has nothing to do with the game's definition of what an 'attack' is.

There's no reason to believe that the real world meaning of the word would not apply since there is no place where the words state that "as far as the game is concerned this is what we mean when we use the term attack". Yes, there are rules on how to resolve certain types of attacks, that does not mean that anything not covered by that section of the book would not be considered an attack.

Yes there is: PHB p192 in the section Making An Attack tells us what an 'attack' is as a game term. BTW, it has no burden to list all the things that are not an 'attack'; all it needs to do is list the things that are an 'attack', and therefore anything not on that list has failed to meet the criteria for an 'attack' as far as the game rules are concerned.

"If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the RULE is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."

The rules are permissive. They are what they say they are. You cannot point to things it does not say and pretend like they meant this too. You cannot say that mage armour ends if the target throws sand in someone's eyes on the grounds that there is nothing in the spell description that says the spell doesn't end if I throw sand! I can't claim that my 1st level fighter can cast 2 7th level wizard spells per short rest on the grounds that nowhere in the description of the fighter class does it say that 1st level fighters cannot cast 7th level spells!

And yet, here you are saying, "I know that the game defines 'attack' as something that involves an attack roll, but it doesn't say that things that don't have an attack roll are not attacks, so they are!" It's the same absurdity!

It goes back to fundamentals. Unless the rules say otherwise, use common terminology. The rules clarify how to resolve certain types of attacks, it does not redefine the term, it does not need to.

When the game uses a term which is a game term in the context of how one game mechanic interacts with another, they do indeed mean it as a game term and not as common language!

You get +2 AC for a shield! Great, +2 AC just from using this brand of insect repellent! What? Surely they are using 'shield' as natural language and not the thing they have already defined as a shield in the equipment chapter?

That and I think it's silly that dropping a nuke /using a flamethrower/breathing fire on someone would not be considered an attack.

No, what is silly is that 'attacking' pops invisibility! The two have no cause/effect relationship!

'Normal' people, those who have no experience of RPGs, would not connect the two. They don't understand 'attack' as a game term, but they also would not assume that hitting someone makes your magic spell stop working!

The fact that an 'attack' does pop invisibility is a pure game mechanic with no origin in reality OR legend. It is a game mechanic, it refers to other game mechanics to define what happens when the two game mechanics interact.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Because as I've explained repeatedly it's just a ruling? Because I don't want this scenario:

DM: "You hear the mighty flap of a dragon's wings a moment before there's a great whoosh of fire. An invisible dragon attacks by breathing fire on you! Roll your dex save.".

Player: "Dang! I knew there were rumors the dragon was working with a wizard!"

[saving throws are rolled, damage resolved]

Player: "OK, I target the dragon with hold monster."

DM: "You can't, you don't see it."

Player: "Dang, Improved Invisibility? How high a level is that wizard?"

DM: "No, it's just regular invisibility. But he didn't attack because he didn't make an attack roll."

Player: "WTF? You just said he attacked by breathing fire on us?"

DM: "Oh, well he attacked you, but he didn't attack you."

Player: "???"​

You don't like this scenario because it seems unfair? That just seems like a question of communicating your rulings to players. I would be sure to explain to my players how I think invisibility works, so there would be no reason to be surprised. I guess you would do the same, otherwise you risk a player being similarly annoyed when they try to help someone and the spell ends.

But if this reflects the basic issue, then I guess your concern is that it makes the spell too powerful? You just don't think a second level spell ought to let a dragon do something like that? If so I'm totally fine with that. I don't agree, but I can understand your position.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
Because as I've explained repeatedly it's just a ruling? Because I don't want this scenario:

DM: "You hear the mighty flap of a dragon's wings a moment before there's a great whoosh of fire. An invisible dragon attacks by breathing fire on you! Roll your dex save.".

Player: "Dang! I knew there were rumors the dragon was working with a wizard!"

[saving throws are rolled, damage resolved]

Player: "OK, I target the dragon with hold monster."

DM: "You can't, you don't see it."

Player: "Dang, Improved Invisibility? How high a level is that wizard?"

DM: "No, it's just regular invisibility. But he didn't attack because he didn't make an attack roll."

Player: "WTF? You just said he attacked by breathing fire on us?"

DM: "Oh, well he attacked you, but he didn't attack you."

Player: "???"​

DM: Miss! The wizard's AC is 14. He's got mage armour.

Player: Wait a minute! He attacked me with his staff. That definitely counts as an attack!

DM: ...So?

Player: So, his mage armour spell pops!

DM: What are you talking about? Nowhere in the description of mage armour does it say that the spell stops working if you attack!

Player: Ah, but nowhere does it say that it doesn't! So it does! ;)

Silly? Yes. But no more silly than the players who think that invisibility should pop if the target uses a breath weapon, because nowhere in the spell does it mention that it would! There is a list of things that pop invisibility, but breath weapons are not on that list. If they made that assumption then they were wrong! They put the 'ass' in 'umption'!
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
So by that logic is an invisible Cleric who is using the Healer feat on an allied Fighter who is attacking also attacking? They are assisting the fighter, after all, by making sure she can continue to attacking. Would that break the invisibility? How about the Rogue who snuck up under the cover of Invisibility to recon the foes before the battle commenced? His information was certainly helpful to someone who would be attacking. That should break invis, too.

Honestly, just use Occam's Razor here. Attacking leads to the potential of the actor doing damage. Using the Help action does not do that. QED.

Honestly? I can set up straw men just as effectively as you can. How about breaking the invisibility of the weaponsmith who forged the sword the fighter's using? Or maybe his mom who gave birth to him?
 

Oofta

Legend
I'm trying not to lose my patience, but what point is there for continuing this conversation? It has nothing to do with game balance or how powerful the invisibility spell is. However, the devs have repeatedly stated that the game was designed to use natural language whenever possible.

In my opinion describing how to resolve certain types of attacks in game terms does not redefine the word "attack". We have to define certain terms like AC (or Mage Armor or Hit Points) because they have no inherent meaning. I don't see a reason to ignore the generally accepted meaning of the word "attack". When you DM feel free to make a different ruling.
 

Honestly? I can set up straw men just as effectively as you can. How about breaking the invisibility of the weaponsmith who forged the sword the fighter's using? Or maybe his mom who gave birth to him?

So you agree that the 'guy helping the bully' argument is as non-sensical and hyperbolic as I take it be?
 

nswanson27

First Post
Honestly? I can set up straw men just as effectively as you can. How about breaking the invisibility of the weaponsmith who forged the sword the fighter's using? Or maybe his mom who gave birth to him?

That's not a strawman, that's reducto ad absurdum do denote how using "common language", on can redefine something into what they want it to be. Perfectly valid point.
 

So, I think the original question was as to whether the "Help" action in combat would remove the invisibility spell.

Help

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

So my question would be, how is the invisible creature distracting the target? They're invisible, so a feint wouldn't work. I wouldn't rule that Helping in combat always leads to a loss of invisibility, but the PC would have to describe what they were doing. If they physically make contact with the target, to try to trip, shove, push off balance, etc, they would roll for an attack (similar to a grapple) and invisibility would end. If they were to wave a poster next to the enemy's head to distract them, then I would say they keep invisibility, but the attacker gets an Attack of Opportunity (with disadvantage) if they move out of the enemy's space.

As for things like a Dragon's Breath Weapon, that is harder to decide on. It clearly is not an "Attack" action as outlined by the PHB, nor is it a "Spell". However, I feel that the intention of this Second Level spell was not to be able to have dragons breathe death upon groups and doing massive damage while remaining invisible. I feel the spell was not designed to allow massive damage to be done while remaining invisible. However, if that is how anyone would rule because of the definition of "Attack" and the wording of the spell, then that's totally fine by me. I understand both sides: one is going for strict interpretation of the rules using definitions in place in the provided material. Very legal-esque. Nothing wrong with that. The other side is more trying to make sense of what the spell means to them, and what they feel its intention was. Also nothing wrong with that. Neither side seems likely to convince the other, and they are both valid interpretations, in my humble view.
 

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