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Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour: The Warlord

mellored

Legend
For those that are throwing around adjectives like they mean anything, can you try to provide a proper thematic description for the class, it's core purpose, at least a framework of the mechanics, and in what way the proposed subclasses are unique enough to be worth building? And don't just say, "What 4E did." I have literally never touched a 4E book. Try to be convincing with your own words.
Core purpose: Using skill (not magic) to provide utility and support to the party.

Framework: There's been may suggestions, but IMO the basic form would be to hand out instant bonuses. Which feels different from casters pre-bonuses like bless, greater invisibility, or haste.
i.e.
when an ally misses with an attack, you can use your reaction to let them reroll the attack. (possibly let them take an extra attack as a bonus action, or whatever).
when an ally would provoke an OA, you can prevent the OA.
when an ally rolls inititive, you can swap with your inititive.
when an ally rolls a skill check, you can give them advantage.
when an enemy does.... you can....

Get's an extra reaction at 5, 11, and 17. (Or something similar).

As well as non-combat stuff like expertise, extra languages, etc.


Sub-classes: Boosts a particular tactic or maneuver. Or adding a more powerful one.
i.e.
Spy: When you let an ally reroll a skill check, they gain +bonus.
Doomsayer: When an ally scores a critical hit against an enemy, they are afraid of that ally until the start of your allies next turn.
Watchman: Initiative bonus to all allies. You can use your abilities at a longer range. You can't be surprised.
Martyr: Extra armor. When an ally is hit, you push them out of the way and take the damage yourself. Reduce damage at higher level.
 

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Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
The idea of having a ''leader-y'' (as in the 4e term) archetype for many classes is a good one; archetype that doesnt decide actions for another player, but instead favor teamwork and the pooling of resources. The PDK was too conservative in its design, but the basic idea is good: extend your class features to benefit your party. Rogue has Mastermind, Paladin has Crown, Fighter has PDK (could benefit from a stronger alternative), Druid has Dream, Bard as Valor, whats missing?

- Community/Civilization/Travel (as in traveling group) Cleric Domain (party taking rest together gets bonus, see Circle of Dream druid/bard's song of rest)
- Legendary Ruler origin for Sorcerer (Can Metamagic spells of allies)
- Thane barbarian (Inspire rage?)
- Circle Mage wizard (Shared spellslot and concentration)
- Warlock of an Organization: its a strange trope that I see frequently on Reddit, a Warlock making a pact with a powerful organization instead of a specific entity, that gives him powers to further its agenda. Interesting. (I could the Harpers or Zentharim in FR, a great House of Eberron or the Templars from Dark Sun if you see them as protector of a group of rulers and not of a specific SK)
 


The idea of having a ''leader-y'' (as in the 4e term) archetype for many classes is a good one; archetype that doesnt decide actions for another player, but instead favor teamwork and the pooling of resources. The PDK was too conservative in its design, but the basic idea is good: extend your class features to benefit your party. Rogue has Mastermind, Paladin has Crown, Fighter has PDK (could benefit from a stronger alternative), Druid has Dream, Bard as Valor, whats missing?

- Community/Civilization/Travel (as in traveling group) Cleric Domain (party taking rest together gets bonus, see Circle of Dream druid/bard's song of rest)
- Legendary Ruler origin for Sorcerer (Can Metamagic spells of allies)
- Thane barbarian (Inspire rage?)
- Circle Mage wizard (Shared spellslot and concentration)
- Warlock of an Organization: its a strange trope that I see frequently on Reddit, a Warlock making a pact with a powerful organization instead of a specific entity, that gives him powers to further its agenda. Interesting. (I could the Harpers or Zentharim in FR, a great House of Eberron or the Templars from Dark Sun if you see them as protector of a group of rulers and not of a specific SK)

All of these are great ideas, but since some of them have magic involved, it doesn't mean anything, because you can't support people with magic.

Well let's count the number of non-magical support classes it could be a subclass of...
Oh. Zero.

I guess Wolf Totem, Mastermind, and Commanding Strike don't exist then.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I really like what Mike Mearls is doing with his video series...
This is the first I'd heard of it. It does seem an interesting peek into the design process, at least, a one-man version of it. I'm sure it's a little different in real development when he's delegating more of the grunt work, not just brainstorming by himself, etc...

For those that are throwing around adjectives like they mean anything
Adjectives are a perfectly cromulent part of speech.... ;P

, can you try to provide a proper thematic description for the class, it's core purpose, at least a framework of the mechanics, and in what way the proposed subclasses are unique enough to be worth building?
"Unique enough to be worth building" is a very, very low bar, if you consider that every sub-class to see print so far in 5e must have cleared it. I mean, how unique is an EK from a Bladesinger? A PDK from an OotC? A battlerager from a berserker? A War Cleric from a Paladin? Heck, whole classes are rather lacking in uniqueness - Sorcerer vs Wizard vs Warlock.

5e design, perhaps only as a side effect of trying to integrate so much that had come before or in trying to keep certain things optional, tends to give a player multiple paths to very similar concepts or even the same concept. A classic icon of early D&D was the Elf, able to fight and cast spells. An elven Eldritch Knight, in 5e, covers that concept. So does a SCAG Bladesinger. So does an MC'd Fighter/Wizard. A wizard with the Soldier Background and Martial Adept feat or a Fighter with the Sage background and Magic Initiate feat might not even be that far off.

And, while 5e, to the extent it's balanced at all (and after watching this podcast, I have even less confidence about that), is at worst spot-light balanced, it does not go so far as niche-protection. You don't "need" a Cleric to heal - Bards, Paladins, and Druids can heal quite well, too. You don't "need" a Thief to open locks - anyone can take the criminal background and pick up proficiency with Thieves' Tools.

There is tremendous overlap, both functional and conceptual, among the classes, sub-classes, backgrounds & feats.

To understand what's missing, consider if an existing class were missing, but it's overlapping bits were still there: Imagine there's no Wizard. It's easy, if you try. ;) But, there's still the EK & AT, there's still the Warlock and Sorcerer? What's missing? Couldn't maybe a Tome-pact Warlock or a new "Pure-Blood" (as opposed to muggle!) Sorcerer do the trick? What's so unique about a wizard? Books? Really, that's it? Anyone can surround themselves with some books...

Sounds pretty grim, but there's actually a lot that vanishes with the Wizard. The Wizard is the only arcane class that prepares its spells, the rest have a limited known-spells. There are 33 spells that'd vanish from the game with the Wizard - they're not on any other list. The wizard also represents something of an extreme point in the design, being traditionally the lowest-hp, least-skilled-with-weapons, most-magically-inclined of all the classes. And, it uses INT as it's caster stat, heck, it's virtually the only class to make significant use of INT.

As to it's practical contributions, yeah, it's a lot like a Sorcerer or Warlock (or Cleric, Bard or Druid), it casts spells a lot of them, of quite a variety, but it leans towards offensive & utility spells, and isn't 'burdened' by the presence of healing and other 'support' spells putting pressure on it's slots. So it's a Sorcerer/Warlock-type class in contribution, but subtly different in concept & mechanics.

You can see how the wizard, had it been in the game only a few years, might seem superfluous given all that, but, even then, it wouldn't actually be, given even a small toe-hold, it'd be unique enough.


To plug the Warlord into that analogy, there are bits of it sitting around. D&D without the wizard still has the EK and AT, without the Warlord, it still has the Battlemaster, which uses vaguely similar mechanics, and the Mastermind. Sub-classes that hint at a bit of the whole. The Cleric, Druid & Bard make similar contributions, but in very different ways both mechanically and conceptually. The Bard is closer, conceptually (the Bard even has a minor feature called 'Inspiration'), but where the Wizard in our analogy hangs it's hat on casting some different spells, and doing so using INT instead of CHA, the Warlord is unique from the Bard in not being a caster, /at all/, a huge conceptual difference.

That's it in a nutshell. A non-caster (non-magical, even, at least, at it's base, sub-classes in 5e can tack on that sort of thing), that makes primarily support-oriented contributions substantial enough to replace the traditional Cleric's contributions (or the Druid or Bard alternatives).

The game has elements that point to the ability of non-casters (even if entirely non-magical) to make support contributions: A few BM maneuvers, the feat, Martial Adept, that lets you tap one, the Inspiring Leader and Healer feats, the PDK sub-class doing non-magical healing, the Mastermind sub-class, and a few other odds and ends. But, it has no class that's primarily about that. Adding one - the Warlord, which did just that in 4e quite nicely - doesn't just open up character-concept options for players, it makes campaigns that de-emphasize or remove PC casting entirely suddenly much more practical.

I have literally never touched a 4E book.
Maybe you should? There's no small amount of stuff from 4e in 5e, and it might give you some insights. Same goes, obviously, for other prior editions, especially AD&D. 5e is very much shaped by the legacy and history of the game.


4e gave us 6 official 'builds,' plus an alternate feature, each of which would map to a 5e sub-class. I've already listed them, but, until you get the chance to touch not one, but three 4e books, I'll throw in a brief description of the concept, and how it might be done in 5e.

Tactical - a canny warlord, who excels at devising & coordinating cunning plans. This is the one that Mearls was talking about in the podcast as if it were the whole class, so, in 5e would use INT and 'Gambits' that map, vaguely, to spells in the way Mearls went into, only, to do it 'right,' it'd map more to the casting of Druid or Wizard than an EK. It would emphasize 'Tactical Gambits' in the same sense that an Evoker emphasizes blasty spells, an emphasis, being better at it, not in the sense of being unable to use everything else.

Inspiring - the original opposite number to the tactical warlord, the inspiring warlord did exactly what it says on the tin, bolstered his allies (hps, both healing &temps and handed out buffs), mainly keyed off CHA. It tended to be less about maneuvering & commanding and more about leading & aiding. In 5e, it would use the same Gambits & Maneuvers as other warlords, but better at the ones that hand out bonuses and hps, probably by the simple expedient of tacking his CHA mod onto them.

Resourceful - where the tactical warlord plans & orchestrates, the resourceful warlord reacts to opportunity - he has contingencies. The resourceful sub-class in 5e might be like the still unrealized generalist wizard, it'd be reasonably good at all the various sorts of Gambits, and it'd benefit a little, from both INT & CHA. Or, it could emphasize gambits that react to the enemy and leverage the environment.

Bravura - Mearls also hinted a this one, just a bit, in talking about the benighted pre-sub-class Warlord-heading fighter. It's the lead from the front type. It leads by example, is all about showing and inspiring bravery - and intimidating the enemy, something 5e could afford to emphasize more than 4e did. In 5e terms, this'd be the faux-fighter-multi-class sub-class, analogous to a war cleric, valor bard, or bladesinger. It'd get an actual extra attack of it's own, get slightly better weapons or armor, and do better with Gambits that involved getting in there and mixing it up to make things happen, rather than those that provoke or trick the enemy or direct or coordinate allies.

These next three were the last gasp of the warlord before essential (keep in mind, everything Warlord in 4e came out in a 2-year period, as soon as Mearls took the helm, the Warlord got nothing - except getting slapped with the 'Marshal' sub-class label) got less support than the others, so they're not as fleshed out...

Skirmishing - Emphasized mobility for both itself and it's allies. Skirmishing is RL military tactic, of course, in 4e, there were plenty of exploits that involved movement. In 5e, it could get a more evocative treatment, maybe emphasize DEX and light armor, and gambits best used by similarly mobile allies, and, of course, be particularly good at those gambits that involved maneuvering allies, quick in-and-out attacks and the like.

Insightful - 'Watchful' might've been a good name for this one. Specialized understanding the enemy and staying alert for their plans and actions. Mechanically it didn't much deliver, it mostly just subbed WIS for INT or CHA when handing out bonuses. In 5e it could get a more interesting "know your enemy" sort of treatment, shading over into what in 4e would have been off-limits 'controller' functions, and imposing conditions and actions on the enemy, metaphorically 'getting in their heads' and predicting & manipulating them. Could be very good at a few such gambits that are otherwise marginal in the hands of most other warlords.

and Archery - though the distinction isn't important, this was not a build, but an alternate feature ::shrug:: - 4e was not super flexible about the choice of range vs melee weapons, STR vs DEX, so the Warlord was mostly STR/Melee. This version was able to do ranged. It was the sole official exception to the 'lead from the front' idiom, it would shoot enemies and set them up for allies. In 5e, it'd be a lot less convoluted to emphasize ranged weapons, and an Archer-Warlord could simply do so, and excel at Gambits involving archery, his own or coordinating with his allies.

Then, there's the 'Lazy' build, it wasn't spelled out, but players strung together some tactical 'exploits' (maneuvers or gambits), that didn't involve the warlord attacking (or often, even acting, at all), into a build that aided allies primarily by funneling actions to them. The concepts this opens up are surprising - Garthanos called it a 'Princess Build,' because it could be used to let you play a seemingly-helpless side-kick or damsel in distress sort of character, yet still fully-contribute to the success of your party. Instead of imperiously commanding your allies to attack, you scream for help. ;) In 5e, this sub-class could de-emphasize weapons & armor, emphasize CHA and Gambits that involve heroics on the part of their allies.

Then there's all those Warlord-focused Paragon Paths, any of which might also inspire a sub-class. (Or a PrC. Have I mentioned, lately, that 5e could really benefit from 3.5-style PrCs? I think I have.)

There's 38 of them, in all. One, the Purple Dragon Knight, already a fighter sub-class (really, really, should have been a PrC, just say'n... OK, I'll shut up about it for a few minutes.).

For another instance, there's an 'Arcane Battlemaster' (I think Mage-Captain, might've been a good name), that actually did get a few (3) spells. That could be the EK-like faux-multi-class-Wizard sub-class. But the cool potential, with this sub-class is applying all those mostly-martial-focused gambits & tactics to casters. Free attack? How 'bout a free cantrip? How about I help you maintain your concentration...? Need a forward observer for that fireball?\
yeah. ;>

Some of them are race-specific (Spiral Tactician, Earthfast Brigadier), like the Battlerager in SCAG is, so would seem to be OK for a 5e sub-class.

Some are religious (Platinum Warlord, Dujun of Erathis, Battlord of Kord), they could be bundled into a pally or cleric faux-multiclass.

Combat Veteran was one I rather liked, the Path that gave us the grizzled drill sergeant vision of the Warlord. ;)

etc... too much to go into, really...

But 5e classes aren't as focused as 4e classes were. The Warlord could stray into 'controller' and striker functions, as well, could literally lead bands of NPCs (perhaps under the sub-class name 'Marshal' as in "marshalling the volunteers"), and, of course, could go ahead and like the Fighter & Rogue, have a spell-casting sub-class or two.

The Marshal, BTW, was a Battlesystem class - not in the league of most 3.x PC classes, but better than an NPC class - that vaguely presaged the Warlord. It really was in a tactical miniatures game, and it's thing was 'auras' that gave fairly bland bonuses to allies in them. Yippee.

So, finally:
I like the idea of re-imagining the Marshal as a sub-class that focuses on larger numbers of (necessarily NPC) allies. Like the old-school Fighter and his (generally useless) band of men-at-arms he attracted for building that enormously expensive keep. But, y'know, not so generally useless.
Could specialize in gambits that involve the whole party, or the tired 'organize the villagers to defend themselves' trope. Would have been untenable in 4e because launching volleys of missle fire or setting up shield walls or whatever other modest-scale military maneuvers would have stomped into 'controller' territory. In 5e, it'd be fine to have some gambits like that, and a sub-class that was particularly good at them.
 
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To plug the Warlord into that analogy, there are bits of it sitting around. D&D without the wizard still has the EK and AT, without the Warlord, it still has the Battlemaster, which uses vaguely similar mechanics, and the Mastermind. Sub-classes that hint at a bit of the whole. The Cleric, Druid & Bard make similar contributions, but in very different ways both mechanically and conceptually. The Bard is closer, conceptually (the Bard even has a minor feature called 'Inspiration'), but where the Wizard in our analogy hangs it's hat on casting some different spells, and doing so using INT instead of CHA, the Warlord is unique from the Bard in not being a caster, /at all/, a huge conceptual difference.

That's it in a nutshell. A non-caster (non-magical, even, at least, at it's base, sub-classes in 5e can tack on that sort of thing), that makes primarily support-oriented contributions substantial enough to replace the traditional Cleric's contributions (or the Druid or Bard alternatives).

The game has elements that point to the ability of non-casters (even if entirely non-magical) to make support contributions: A few BM maneuvers, the feat, Martial Adept, that lets you tap one, the Inspiring Leader and Healer feats, the PDK sub-class doing non-magical healing, the Mastermind sub-class, and a few other odds and ends. But, it has no class that's primarily about that. Adding one - the Warlord, which did just that in 4e quite nicely - doesn't just open up character-concept options for players, it makes campaigns that de-emphasize or remove PC casting entirely suddenly much more practical.

To a point, this is true, but I don't really see a point to adding something as narrow as the Warlord to the full class selection.

For the Artificer, yes, I can 100% see that. Someone who creates things and uses those things is a wide enough berth to give a new class to. Same with the Mystic, It adds basically a whole new form of magic to the game, and I don't think just putting that into subclasses would reach the idea that people want to make.

However, with something like the Warlord, I don't really see it. If you'll allow me to repeat myself, it feels like a Gunslinger. Something that's cool and fills a niche, but it just doesn't seem like something you could base a whole class around.

I also feel like keeping the number of classes down is in the best interests of the game.
 

Pauln6

Hero
The 5 minute work day maneuvers and commander supplement was fun. It listed new manoeuvres, many of which were Warlord based. It also had a passable Warlord fighter subclass using SDs that can share the benefit of action surge, add a bonus to your allies' initiative rolls, and regain one SD as a bonus action.

Even without the subclass, the extra Warlord 'command manoeuvres' can also add flavour to other classes and subclasses using the Martial Adept feat on top of the other existing Warlord style feats. I personally would just tweak the Banneret subclass with a free Martial Adept feat choosing only from one of the 12 command manoeuvres.

If an official version will build on this sort of thing, it could be fun. There are also multiclass options such as Mastermind Rogue or Valour Bard that can add further variations. There is a lot of Warlordy fun to be had.
 

mellored

Legend
So why can't that be done by subclasses for the classes we already have in the game?
There are 2 non-magical classes. Both do a high amount of at-will damage tied into their base class, leaving little room for support.
A mastermind's rogues primary function is still to deal damage.

I've seen/tried a few attempts at trading out damage for maneuvers, but they've been pretty clunky. Fighters and rogues just don't have the readily swap-able power like casters do, who can easily choose between fireball and haste.
 

There are 2 non-magical classes. Both do a high amount of at-will damage tied into their base class, leaving little room for support.
A mastermind's rogues primary function is still to deal damage.

I've seen/tried a few attempts at trading out damage for maneuvers, but they've been pretty clunky. Fighters and rogues just don't have the readily swap-able power like casters do, who can easily choose between fireball and haste.

Maybe I'm just stupid, or maybe I just don't get it, but I really don't understand why people are so up in arms about the class not being magical or not doing too much damage.

I'm honestly beginning to think that trying to do a Warlord is almost worthless because people are gonna be upset about it no matter what.
 
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