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Any Dungeon World players here?

So in summary, this is why i think that dungeon workd is a hard game to grasp until played. There are no answers in the rulebook for a lot of things. Most things use evocative language to start a creative process between you and the players.

This is a bit abstract so I'll give an example.

A havee a wizard in this campaign and when he first came we discussed what it looks like when he casts spells. He said that the are around would go completely silent, the light would dim, and the magical effectd he crested wpuld glow in a green light.

It was evocative and cool. Now that has been established he cant take that back. Hes not able to cast a spell without everyone knowing about it, because its so obvious.

Theres nothing in the rules that tell you magic is flashy. He could have easily said that it just happens and no one is the wiser. But i beleive the player thought that would be boring and so we went a different route.
 

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Oh and last thing to add, as ive been posting far too much on this topic - theres a cost to everything.

If a player wants to do something for a big effect and you think its plausible they can do it, then you can say "sure, but if it goes badly the the consequences are going ti be equally dire!" And lay it out for them.

High risk, high reward.

A range was stuck on the mast of a flying pirate ship with kegs of gunpowder ready to blow. He couldnt get off, but he had set fire to them anyway. He knew he risked death, but he did it any way. He knew that he had one shot for his flying animal companion to grab him before the ship exploded, and failure of the roll would mean death.

In this campaign, several players have been a roll away from instead death about a half dozen times all up. Theyve been very lucky so far! (Fortunately characters are quick to make in dw)
 

cthulhu42

Explorer
Oh and last thing to add, as ive been posting far too much on this topic - theres a cost to everything.

If a player wants to do something for a big effect and you think its plausible they can do it, then you can say "sure, but if it goes badly the the consequences are going ti be equally dire!" And lay it out for them.

High risk, high reward.

A range was stuck on the mast of a flying pirate ship with kegs of gunpowder ready to blow. He couldnt get off, but he had set fire to them anyway. He knew he risked death, but he did it any way. He knew that he had one shot for his flying animal companion to grab him before the ship exploded, and failure of the roll would mean death.

In this campaign, several players have been a roll away from instead death about a half dozen times all up. Theyve been very lucky so far! (Fortunately characters are quick to make in dw)

Please don't apologize for all the replies. I'm getting something from every one of them. Thanks for taking the time!
 


darkbard

Legend
Just popping it to say, [MENTION=6848185]CubicsRube[/MENTION], that your forum handle is among the most clever I've ever seen! Kudos!

Also, though I haven't played DW, I have read through large chunks of the rules and played in other "Story Now," player-facing systems that its rules lend themselves to. The play experience IS quite different in some ways from "traditional" RPGing, but wonderfully so! If you're at all interested in what I mean by the difference in player-facing vs. GM-facing play, you might check out the (very long now and, at times, heated, but still quite informative) thread hereabouts in this forum entitled "what is *worldbuilding* for."

Have fun [MENTION=6792361]cthulhu42[/MENTION] (which is also a pretty clever handle, combining two of my favorite things!).
 


Arilyn

Hero
I've only played DW a few times, unfortunately. I found it to be a more intense experience than DnD, maybe because of the lack of initiative. Really strong story elements were branching from the dice rolls as well. Some players find that these types of games break immersion. It was the opposite for me.
 

pemerton

Legend
So would you recommend letting them shift into monsters? The idea of letting the 1st level druid shift into a dragon seems counterintuative, but I'm trying to let go of all my preconceived notions of traditional RPGs, so maybe it would be ok. Most of the time she's only going to get 2 moves, and while those moves are pretty powerful, there's still only two of them. (three if she gets a really good roll).
As I said upthread, I'm not any sort of expert. And I've never seen a druid in play. So I'm proceeding from the rulebook plus intuition.

Here's the text on p 107 (including the sidebar):

When you call upon the spirits to change your shape, roll+Wis. *On a 10+ hold 3. *On a 7–9 hold 2. *On a miss hold 1 in addition to whatever the GM says.

You may take on the physical form of any species whose essence you have studied or who lives in your land: you and your possessions meld into a perfect copy of the species’ form. You have any innate abilities and weaknesses of the form: claws, wings, gills, breathing water instead of air. You still use your normal stats but some moves may be harder to trigger - a housecat will find it hard to do battle with an ogre. The GM will also tell you one or more moves associated with your new form. Spend 1 hold to make that move. Once you’re out of hold, you return to your natural form. At any time, you may spend all your hold and revert to your natural form.

Animal moves just say what the animal naturally does, like "call the pack," "trample them," or "escape to the air." When you spend your hold your natural instinct kicks in and that move happens. If you spend hold to escape to the air, that’s it - you’re away and on the wing.​

(The bolding is not in my copy of the rules. I assume that its absence is a layout error.)

There are references in this to other druid abilities and moves. From p 106:

You learned your magic in a place whose spirits are strong and ancient and they’ve marked you as one of their own. No matter where you go, they live within you and allow you to take their shape. Choose one of the following. It is the land to which you are attuned—when shapeshifting you may take the shape of any animal who might live in your Land.​

And on p 107:

When you spend time in contemplation of an animal spirit, you may add its species to those you can assume using shapeshifting.​

So it is pretty clear that shapeshifting is into animal forms. Whether dragons count as animals seems like a group-specific, campaign-specific thing. If you're worried about it, because you're not sure how to handle it as a GM, then my default would be to say that it's not, unless it is really central to the player's conception of what his/her druid can do. (And I'd be upfront about this - "I'm not sure how to handle a dragon properly, so can we just agree it's not an animal whose spirit you are attuned to?")

As far as animal moves are concerned, they are triggered by spending Hold. Page 21 tells us that "Hold is currency that allows you to make some choices later on by spending the hold as the move describes." And the example of Hold provided by the Defend move (p 64) are all of automatic effects. This is similar to what the sidebar on p 107 suggests when it says that your instinct kicks in and the move happens. So I don't see any roll being required - the roll was already made in Shapeshifting.

What the animal moves are is up to the GM to tell the player, following the logic of the fiction. The sidebar gives examples, and I'd extrapolate from there. If the druid turns into an elephant and tramples them, that sounds like dealing damage and knocking prone. If the druid turns into a shark and rends their flesh, that sounds like dealing damage messily. If the druid turns into a gibbon and escapes through the trees, that sounds like a way of succesfully defying some danger, or perhaps bringing some sorts of situations to an end. Etc.

So again (and forgive me for being dense, but I really want to get this game), are the bold font texts generally considered moves?

<snip>

does a move only require a roll if it specifically states that it does?
I've always assumed that the answer to your first question is yes. And this is what is implied by the example towards the top of p 18 of the rulebook.

As for your second question: p 15 says "a move [is] something that’ll cause everyone to stop and say 'time to roll the dice to see what happens.'" But p 18 says "When a player describes their character doing something that triggers a move, that move happens and its rules apply. If the move requires a roll, its description will tell you what dice to roll and how to read their results." So that implies that not all moves require a dice roll, but that a roll is probably the default.

This goes back to my clerical Divine Guidance question. It's listed under the cleric's basic moves, so I assume it is a move

<snip>

If not, and Divine Guidance is just a gimmie, does that mean that the cleric just gets a auto boon every day? It does say that the info or boon will be related to the deity's domain, so that narrows it a bit. Still, that seems like a headache.
In my copy of the rules (p 93), Divine Guidance reads:

When you petition your deity according to the precept of your religion, you are granted some useful knowledge or boon related to your deity’s domain. The GM will tell you what.​

It is not confined to oncer per day. But it does require petioning the deity in accordance with the precepts of the cleric's religion. To quote from p 18 again, "A move depends on a fictional action and always has some fictional effect." So the cleric has to actually petition his/her deity in the appropriate manner. This is a constraint, but I don't think it's best seen as a constraint against overuse or "abuse". It's a constraint that helps establish the shared fiction in a certain way: clerics receive divine guidance, but only when, and because, they petition their deities appropriately.

Actually providing the cleric with the information or boon, as GM, shouldn't be a headache. It's another chance to drive the fiction onwards.

real consequences. This is where the MC earns their keep, innovating and improvising, adding a new layer of consequences over the player's actions.
I wanted to pick up on this - especially the bit that I bolded.

In the "what is worldbuildingfor?" thread that [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] referenced, [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] referred to something that is similar (I think): following the fiction wherever it might lead.

In my experience this is very demanding. Maybe I'm more sentimental than most, but I find it hard to follow the fiction when it means that the PCs are going to suffer. I don't like it when bad things happen to the characters that I sympathise with.

But that is what this sort of game calls upon you to do.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]

That's like the hardest thing. We have these characters we all like, but in order for the game to remain interesting meaningful conflict must be sustained. We need to risk that bad things might happen to them. That's part of being a fan of the characters. i'll have more later when I have more time. On my way to work for a bit.
 

Maybe I'm more sentimental than most, but I find it hard to follow the fiction when it means that the PCs are going to suffer. I don't like it when bad things happen to the characters that I sympathise with.

But that is what this sort of game calls upon you to do.

That's like the hardest thing. We have these characters we all like, but in order for the game to remain interesting meaningful conflict must be sustained. We need to risk that bad things might happen to them.

When I first started running Apocalypse World, I was giving an ad-lib intro and I said 'Let's treat each session like a TV show. So if you don't know what to do, just think about what the audience watching wants to see."

With my group that worked out very well. The focus shifted completely away from any thoughts of turtling, risk-averse character advocacy into a broader awareness of how the whole session looked, the dramas and conflicts that were brewing and needed resolving... or exploring, or escalating.

If you give players tools to generate content, and to drive play, they also need the awareness and understanding that they bear a lot of responsibility for the resulting game being fun and satisfying. The 'TV show' analogy helped my group see how the play of each of their characters was contributing to the tension and drama of unfolding situations in a much wider sense.

It also helped them see their characters as competent individuals who could act alone and independently. As AW says: To do it, do it. And it seemed to cushion the blow when bad stuff happened to their character as they could see it was 'good for the show' even if it seemed to hose them for the time being.
 

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