D&D 5E The best solution for longswords

[jaelis]

While a DM is free to rule a Table Leg is similar enough to merit the damage die of a Greatclub, that's not quite the same a a DM saying a +1 Longsword counts as an Improvised weapon, don't you think?

I would say you can treat a sword as an improvised weapon if you want, but then it will only do 1d4 damage. (And I don't think I would allow magic weapon abilities to apply.)

 

[BookBarbarian]

I would say you can treat a sword as an improvised weapon if you want, but then it will only do 1d4 damage. (And I don't think I would allow magic weapon abilities to apply.)

Right, but with Tavern Brawler that is the same as just throwing a punch. Not much of a benefit there.

 

[Satyrn]

Yes. Even if you posit a more modest distribution of 3d{2,3,3,4,4,5}, more than 14% of elves would have STR greater than DEX, and another nearly 12% would have STR equal to DEX. That's more than a quarter of the population.



I'm not aware that I've ever seen an elf.

You clearly never went to Comic-Con or the like back when the LotTR movies were big

 

[snickersnax]

I would say you can treat a sword as an improvised weapon if you want, but then it will only do 1d4 damage. (And I don't think I would allow magic weapon abilities to apply.)

The d4 improvised weapon damage really only applies to objects "that bear no resemblance to a weapon" , or when you use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon or a melee weapon as a ranged weapon.

If the object you are using is close enough to an actual weapon then you can use the proficiency bonus and weapon damage of the weapon it resembles.

While a DM is free to rule a Table Leg is similar enough to merit the damage die of a Greatclub, that's not quite the same a a DM saying a +1 Longsword counts as an Improvised weapon, don't you think?

So an what point does a 3lb , 48-54", edged and sharpened piece of metal with a handle on it go from being an improvised weapon that behaves and does damage like a longsword to an actual longsword that now can't be used as an improvised weapon?

The only reasonable answer is never. A longsword can always be used as an improvised longsword, because it 100% resembles a longsword.

The alternative is that as some point, your improvised longsword resembles a longsword too much and suddenly you can't use your Tavern brawler features with it? That's ridiculous.

 

[jaelis]

The d4 improvised weapon damage really only applies to objects "that bear no resemblance to a weapon" , or when you use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon or a melee weapon as a ranged weapon.

If the object you are using is close enough to an actual weapon then you can use the proficiency bonus and weapon damage of the weapon it resembles.

Obviously, you can use a longsword, or an object that sufficiently resembles as longsword, as a longsword. But then you wouldn't get the TB benefit, because you aren't using an improvised weapon.

Or I would let you use a longsword as an improvised weapon, by striking with the hilt for instance. Then you would get the TB benefit, but you'd also do improvised weapon damage.

I don't see how you could have it both ways at the same time.

 

[BookBarbarian]

So an what point does a 3lb , 48-54", edged and sharpened piece of metal with a handle on it go from being an improvised weapon that behaves and does damage like a longsword to an actual longsword that now can't be used as an improvised weapon?

The only reasonable answer is never. A longsword can always be used as an improvised longsword, because it 100% resembles a longsword.

The alternative is that as some point, your improvised longsword resembles a longsword too much and suddenly you can't use your Tavern brawler features with it? That's ridiculous.

I think you're thinking a little backwards here. It was always a longsword, never something "close" to a longsword. It was never an improvised Weapon and as such never qualified for the benefit from the feat.

Which is of course, the feats purpose to give a benefit to using Unarmed strikes or Improvised Weapons. If it worked with regular weapons, those regular weapons would be better than improvised 100% of the time. So, ridiculous or not, the feat wouldn't be serving it's intended purpose.

 

[Tony Vargas]

My table's never played an elf in 5e.

Now you're just ripping off Talislanta...

What's the alternative to that assumption? Would you assume something like a 3d6 distribution for both Strength and Dex, such that some elves would have more Strength than Dex, even though they all add +2 to the latter value?

Well, yes, assuming they're independent. Any two results are possible in a given random elf. 18 STR and 3 DEX, for instance, before the modifier. The +2 makes results in higher DEX than STR when they're equal as rolled, or when STR is exactly one higher than DEX. That's not an enormous impact.

Based on actual observations, how many elves have you seen with higher Strength than Dexterity?

Do gauntlets of ogre power and girdles of giant strength count?
Seriously, though, if you're using a roll-and-arrange or point buy, yeah, high stats tend to find their way to DEX when the race is elf, because it's just moar power that way. Not that different when you roll, then pick race.

Attempting to fix the problem of Strength being an inferior combat stat, could very easily create the worse problem of super-strong halflings, which is not currently an issue because they have no reason to build that way.

Now super-strong halflings I have seen.

 

[snickersnax]

Obviously, you can use a longsword, or an object that sufficiently resembles as longsword, as a longsword. But then you wouldn't get the TB benefit, because you aren't using an improvised weapon.

I think you're thinking a little backwards here. It was always a longsword, never something "close" to a longsword. It was never an improvised Weapon and as such never qualified for the benefit from the feat.

OK, so my "improvised longsword" is a broken greatsword. The break has shortened and lightened the weapon so that although its not a longsword, the weight and length and its capacity to be used 2-handed make it so that it is reasonable to be wielded as an improvised longsword doing the same damage as a longsword and using longsword proficency following the improvised weapons rules. And our tavern brawler wants to do just that...

Now all of a sudden, I can grapple as a bonus action using this improvised longsword and not with a regular longsword?

Which is of course, the feats purpose to give a benefit to using Unarmed strikes or Improvised Weapons. If it worked with regular weapons, those regular weapons would be better than improvised 100% of the time. So, ridiculous or not, the feat wouldn't be serving it's intended purpose.

There seem to be three kinds of improvised weapons

1) Objects that resemble simple or martial weapons: these use the damage and proficiency of the weapon they resemble, they are not worse than regular weapons.

2) Objects that don't resemble weapons in the weapon chart: these do a d4 damage and require proficiency in improvised weapons to gain proficiency bonus.

3) Ranged weapons used as melee weapons or melee weapons that are thrown but don't have the thrown property: these do d4 damage.

I don't see a problem here.

 

[BookBarbarian]

OK, so my "improvised longsword" is a broken greatsword. The break has shortened and lightened the weapon so that although its not a longsword, the weight and length and its capacity to be used 2-handed make it so that it is reasonable to be wielded as an improvised longsword doing the same damage as a longsword and using longsword proficency following the improvised weapons rules. And our tavern brawler wants to do just that...

Now all of a sudden, I can grapple as a bonus action using this improvised longsword and not with a regular longsword?

Only at the DM's discretion. That's how the rule works.

There seem to be three kinds of improvised weapons

1) Objects that resemble simple or martial weapons: these use the damage and proficiency of the weapon they resemble, they are not worse than regular weapons.

2) Objects that don't resemble weapons in the weapon chart: these do a d4 damage and require proficiency in improvised weapons to gain proficiency bonus.

3) Ranged weapons used as melee weapons or melee weapons that are thrown but don't have the thrown property: these do d4 damage.

I don't see a problem here.

Yup, any of those work with the Feat as written, just not real weapons.

 

[jaelis]

1) Objects that resemble simple or martial weapons: these use the damage and proficiency of the weapon they resemble, they are not worse than regular weapons.

2) Objects that don't resemble weapons in the weapon chart: these do a d4 damage and require proficiency in improvised weapons to gain proficiency bonus.

3) Ranged weapons used as melee weapons or melee weapons that are thrown but don't have the thrown property: these do d4 damage.

I disagree that (1) should be considered an improvised weapon. If the object resembles a real weapon enough, then it "can be treated as such." If that is the case then you should treat it so consistently, for proficiency, damage, fighting styles, whether TB works, and anything else.

The rule says " For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus." You are treating the table leg as a club, not as an improvised weapon here.