D&D 5E Low Level Druids Are Super Powerful

[neogod22]

Moon druids are known to be strong at lower levels when wildshape is available - but they fall off rapidly.

Common counterpoints:

1.) You can't cast spells in wildshape at low levels, so saying you can benefit from the bear form and the spells is a bit off the mark.
2.) Their animal forms have limitations. AC is low (11 without spells - 16 with barkskin if you can maintain concentration). You also can't speak. This is a disadvantage that the DM should enforce! Make them player gesture and growl.
3.) Bears don't have great initiative.
4.) Bears tend to feel real strong in combat until 5th level. Then, other classes catch up and pass you as a melee force.
5.) You only get 2 wildshapes - and that is a total of two hours, at most. That means that you will sometimes - maybe even often - will not have a wildshape available.

I always hate the "druids fall off" line. Those are from people who obviously don't play druids. 1st druids are full casters. Every level they get more spell slots. 2nd a lot of druid spells are concentration, which means, they can cast and transform. 3rd they get strong forms. CR 2 animals are significantly stronger than CR 1. At lvl 6 all their attacks in animal form counts as magic. At Lvl 10 they can transform into an elemental, which is so much stronger especially if you know how to play your druid.

 

[jgsugden]

It's not off the mark. You can benefit from bear form and the spells. There is nothing about bear form which prevents you from healing the entire party out of combat with a single spell. Nothing about bear form existing prevents you from casting any of those spells prior to turning into a bear and maintaining concentration on them as well. I didn't ever argue you could both cast spells and be a bear simultaneously, so if I had said that it would have been off the mark. But I neither said nor implied that.

I said a bit.
There is a lot you can o with those spell slots while a bear - but there is also a lot you can't do. If you don't think there will be times you wish you could cast in wildshape, you're likely wrong. Druids sometimes have to abandon their wildshapes just to cast one spell.

I am a ghostwise halfling. I can telepathically communicate while in animal form. It's an ability which, as a racial ability, it carries over to my other forms.

Yes, that is a nice race specific loophole.

They don't roll for initiative. Not sure why you thought I'd be a bear walking around a dungeon, but I'm a ghostwise halfling. I can turn INTO a bear as a bonus action. But, obviously, most of the time when not in combat I am a halfling. With a decent initiative. And a decent AC. And a good perception.

If you start all combats as a halfling and have a high dexterity... which you often don't for a wildshaping druid as they don't get any benefit from it when wildshaped, then you do have decent initative in normal form. However, if you have 4 combats per short rest, you're either not wildhaped for 2 of them or have +0 initiative for 2 of them

I get more powerful forms as my levels increase. I am a bear right now because it's a CR One beast. It becomes a beast of CR = Druid Level Divided By Three at 6th.

Yes - usually Polar bear at 6th, and then crocodile at 12th. There are threads on the best options - but brown bear and polar bear are often the choices through evel 11.

It recharges on a short rest so two per short rest is the same as "most combats". And....I am a potent spellcaster with decent armor and hit points even when not in beast form. Last session I only used wildshape once. The rest of the time I was casting spells...really quite good spells. It won't be long until I start betting those Conjure spells, which are incredibly powerful. 8 wolves for one spell, all attacking with advantage!

You're in melee and will not have outstanding concentration or great AC. Once you lose concentration on those summons, they are gone (sometimes with a vengeance). It is not that easy.

Druid feels really strong at levels 2 through 5. Then it feels fine for a few levels, but by higher levels it is honestly a bit lacking... There is nothing wrong with it, but it is not overpowered except for that brief stint at levels 2 to 4.

 

[neogod22]

I said a bit.
There is a lot you can o with those spell slots while a bear - but there is also a lot you can't do. If you don't think there will be times you wish you could cast in wildshape, you're likely wrong. Druids sometimes have to abandon their wildshapes just to cast one spell.Yes, that is a nice race specific loophole.If you start all combats as a halfling and have a high dexterity... which you often don't for a wildshaping druid as they don't get any benefit from it when wildshaped, then you do have decent initative in normal form. However, if you have 4 combats per short rest, you're either not wildhaped for 2 of them or have +0 initiative for 2 of themYes - usually Polar bear at 6th, and then crocodile at 12th. There are threads on the best options - but brown bear and polar bear are often the choices through evel 11. You're in melee and will not have outstanding concentration or great AC. Once you lose concentration on those summons, they are gone (sometimes with a vengeance). It is not that easy.

Druid feels really strong at levels 2 through 5. Then it feels fine for a few levels, but by higher levels it is honestly a bit lacking... There is nothing wrong with it, but it is not overpowered except for that brief stint at levels 2 to 4.

Perfect example of someone who's never played a druid putting their 2 cents in. Lol

 

[jgsugden]

Perfect example of someone who's never played a druid putting their 2 cents in. Lol

You're mistaken. I played one from level 1 to 13 (Moon druid), and have DMed a Land and 2 Moon druids. If you think my observations are off base, you've had different experiences. Different games are different. However, the majority of the discussion in the druid guides, as well as in other threads, is in line with my observations.

Also, I've played D&Din the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s. In 5 different decades. I know my stuff. Respect the vilage elders.

 

[neogod22]

You're mistaken. I played one from level 1 to 13 (Moon druid), and have DMed a Land and 2 Moon druids. If you think my observations are off base, you've had different experiences. Different games are different. However, the majority of the discussion in the druid guides, as well as in other threads, is in line with my observations.

Also, I've played D&Din the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s. In 5 different decades. I know my stuff. Respect the vilage elders.

So here is where you're off base. 1. No one in tier 1 is going through 4 combats in a day, let alone before a short rest. The party would die. There aren't enough resources. 2. If the druid is tanking, he's probably not going to come out of wild shape just to cast 1 spell, that just sounds dumb. 3. Small combats, he may not decide to wild shape. There are plenty of combats that I don't. I've even played whole adventures when I decided just to be a caster. 4. If he does decide to come out of wild shape to cast spells, well, he's a caster, he will have plenty of spell slots at higher level. 5. Who cares what you've read what the optimal shapes are, I think I've turned into a polar bear once. Most druids transform to fit the situation. 6. How do they have weak concentration? Usually their animal forms have pretty good Con. Also, they can take the war caster feat to give themselves advantage. 7. Wild shape lasts in hours equal to half your level, so you can, short rest and overlap shapes. You say you've played a druid to 13th lvl, but you sound like you've read how to play a druid off a forum. You don't sound credible at all. So I'll leave it at that.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

No one in tier 1 is going through 4 combats in a day, let alone before a short rest. The party would die. There aren't enough resources.

You are damaging your credibility.

I am not here to deny anyone's lived experiences, but I can say with absolute certainty that some groups go through four combats before a short rest. Even in tier 1. Nobody has to die. There are sufficient resources.

 

[Zardnaar]

Erm Mistwell do you remember a long time ago on the WoTC forums when I said the Moon Druid was OP lol.

They peak at tier 2 nd now healing spirit makes Druids one of the best healers in the game and their offensive magic while not as good as an arcanist beats the cleric.

Wildshape levels off though.

The reason wildshape levels off is CR 1 at level 2 is alot better than CR 2 at level 6. The higher level combat forms are also huge which can make things difficult and the shapes you can turn into are huge which can make things difficult.

Its still good but the DM can start to ignore the Druid as they are not that big of a threat as they do not inflict enough damage in wild shape form to be that scary. As a DM you are mostly wasting your time hitting a Druid in wild shape form.

 

[neogod22]

You are damaging your credibility.

I am not here to deny anyone's lived experiences, but I can say with absolute certainty that some groups go through four combats before a short rest. Even in tier 1. Nobody has to die. There are sufficient resources.

I'm actually not going to argue with you about 4 combats. I don't absolutely don't care.

 

[Henry]

I am playing a halfling (ghostwise) druid. We've just hit level three.

Holy cow this sucker is powerful!

...Is my experience pretty common? Are low level druids typically notably more powerful than a lot of other low level PCs? Is my guess that this levels off shortly correct? What are people's experience with druids from level 1 through around 9?

I’ve played a Stout Halfling Druid of the Moon Circle for right at a year now (Just hit level 11), and my experience mirrors yours. Our group did ban healing spirit, though — that thing would make a cleric feel inferior, especially at higher levels when you can cast it multiple times. We do use the other spells, though, Xanathar’s other Druid spells were pretty balanced (considering most came from Elemental Evil, I’ve been using them my whole career).

The animal forms are awesome, right up to about 7th level, then I started relying on my spells more — until I got elemental form, and that kicked me back into high gear again. Don’t get me wrong — you can’t go soloing or anything silly like that — but you definitely can split time between spellcasting, and being a front-line heavy when needed.

I do think that compared to land circle, Moon circle might be a little too powerful, enough to use the rules on limiting forms in Xanathars Guide. I have never felt undervalued in the party as a Druid, that’s for sure.

 

[TwoSix]

Just to preface, I played a moon druid from 3rd to 8th, so these are simply anecdotal points. I agree with the bulk of your thesis, druids are wildly underappreciated from a power standpoint, specifically at lower levels.

It's not off the mark. You can benefit from bear form and the spells. There is nothing about bear form which prevents you from healing the entire party out of combat with a single spell. Nothing about bear form existing prevents you from casting any of those spells prior to turning into a bear and maintaining concentration on them as well. I didn't ever argue you could both cast spells and be a bear simultaneously, so if I had said that it would have been off the mark. But I neither said nor implied that.

Anecdotally, benefiting from both wild shape and spells can be difficult, depending on the encounter. The campaign I played in had a lot of underground sections, so I did a lot of scouting in giant spider form. That meant I opened a lot of fights in spider form instead of opening with a faerie fire or an entangle. I could have dropped spider form to be a caster, but that would have meant I lost a lot of buffer hit points and the spider's entangle ability and better than cantrip damage. This gets more painful if you're down to your last wild shape use, since you lose the ability to get an emergency buffer of hit points when things go south. You do have both, of course, but there's a lot of opportunity costs in maximizing uses of wild shape compared to getting optimal spell use.

I am a ghostwise halfling. I can telepathically communicate while in animal form. It's an ability which, as a racial ability, it carries over to my other forms.

Man, I wish I had access to that race when I played a druid. I almost took a level of warlock just to get telepathy, but I couldn't justify it.

They don't roll for initiative. Not sure why you thought I'd be a bear walking around a dungeon, but I'm a ghostwise halfling. I can turn INTO a bear as a bonus action. But, obviously, most of the time when not in combat I am a halfling. With a decent initiative. And a decent AC. And a good perception.

Well, that kind of depends on the encounter, again. I spent a lot of time in scout form, for one, so I opened a fair amount of combats as a spider. And if I shifted into a combat form, I usually stayed in it if I didn't lose all my HP during the combat. Why lose the HP buffer just to talk? Wild shape does last an hour per 2 levels, so spending the majority of your time in wild shape form certainly isn't impossible.

I get more powerful forms as my levels increase. I am a bear right now because it's a CR One beast. It becomes a beast of CR = Druid Level Divided By Three at 6th.

Sure, moon druids kick some ass with wild shape at low levels. But the CR2 beasts available don't scale really great, and CR3 is a wasteland of options (I think there's only one, although I haven't checked Volo's). Elemental shape is cool, I imagine, but I didn't get there.

It recharges on a short rest so two per short rest is the same as "most combats". And....I am a potent spellcaster with decent armor and hit points even when not in beast form. Last session I only used wildshape once. The rest of the time I was casting spells...really quite good spells. It won't be long until I start betting those Conjure spells, which are incredibly powerful. 8 wolves for one spell, all attacking with advantage!

Yea, wild shape is like warlock spells. You have to think about it, but if you screw it up and waste a use, you have pretty solid fallback options. And conjure animals is fantastic, no question.

One of the other underappreciated aspects of moon druids, especially, is that they support some unorthodox build choices. They have almost no stat dependence, since their combat forms are stat replacements and most of their best spells aren't save or attack roll dependent. You can easily get away with a 14 Wis, and use your stat adjustments on some utility feats, like Ritual Caster or Healer.

It's the fact that they multiclass so poorly, and their at-will damage doesn't scale so well, that really keeps them from being discussed as a power choice more, I think.