D&D 5E Low Level Druids Are Super Powerful

[toucanbuzz]

Is my experience pretty common? Are low level druids typically notably more powerful than a lot of other low level PCs? Is my guess that this levels off shortly correct? What are people's experience with druids from level 1 through around 9?

We've seen a Moon Druid in action in a level 1-7 campaign. Simple responses: Yes, it's a common reaction. Yes, the party's primary fighter felt a bit miffed (at first). Yes, the beast forms become less "wow" as players gain levels. And as a final yes, the player ended up loving the druid, and the other players embraced doing what their characters do best. I have come to believe that the primary complaint about Moon Druids isn't really about the mechanics but rather players who attempt to "do it all" and take away the spotlight from others. That's your danger zone in any group, druid or not. That's why the party's fighter felt a bit miffed when the Bear was outpacing him. It diminished why he was at the table playing that type of character. But, I've got a great group, and one of our core tenets is making the game more enjoyable by sharing and encouraging others to do what they do.

So as to your core question, experiences? We all should keep in mind that D&D isn't, and shouldn't be, balanced by class. There's something unique about playing each class, as you get powers and milestones at various levels to contribute in a special way. We saw:

- the animal forms become less powerful each level past 2. It's that level 2 bear form that makes everyone go "woah."
- the beast forms drop pretty quickly by 5th level, a round or two. They're super easy to hit. Your humanoid form gets squishy by 3rd level and on, and your AC will generally always be poor
- Unless your battles are all melee, the animal forms aren't always useful and the "woah" factor lessens. Is there a sniper on the 2nd floor? A wizard across a river? Elevated levels in a cavern?
- You can't talk in animal form. That's great to scout, but you've got to burn your shape shift to talk. So, you become very short rest dependent.
- Concentration spells to augment combat are nice, but in a heat-of-the-moment battle, it's not always convenient to spend a round "getting ready" while other players (and enemies) are dealing damage, controlling the battlefield, and incapacitating
- it's a jack-of-all-trades character in some ways. Which is great! After a PC death, our druid took over as the "tank" (hate that term, but the guy who charges in screaming to get attention away from the others). He wasn't as good as a Fighter-class would've been, but the others supported him and made it work. I suspect had a pure spellcaster been useful, the druid character could've fit that role well-enough
- 6th level was a much needed "bump" in power with new forms.
- No one else gets to shapeshift or cast some of the spells you can. Makes your character unique
- It's fun to play.

So, moral of the story, we all shrugged off our "woah" moment at 2nd level and enjoyed the game, keeping in mind the game is better when we prop others up rather than try to diminish them by "doing it all." The druid has its pros and cons, and it's the blend of both, as it is with every class, that makes playing each of them a unique experience.

 

[neogod22]

Yes, I just wouldn't be so proud of it. Comparing these classes to roles they do not fill does not equate to comparing a moon druid to a melee role - they fill a melee role and the argument in general in this thread is that they are powerful at it.

The complaint is that they're overpowered, primarily because they're an awesome melee force that can cast spells - except (until high levels) they can't cast when in animal form and only get 2 (or later 1) form per SR. So, you're pretty much in a position to use spells, shape, use spells, shape, then use spells. Or, if elementaling, cast, shape, cast. (Yes, they can also use up those slots to heal their form - so they're not wasted, but that healing is not very efficient).

When you compare the melee strength of the moon druid to a fighter, paladin (vengeance paladins offer more damage per LR cycle when factoring in smites, spells, etc... than fighters, btw - not even close), barbarians, bladelocks, valor bards, and even bladesingers ... they blow them out at levels 2 to 4, and then are comparable for a few levels... but then fall behind.

If you compare the druid spell list to that of other classes and factor in the limitation that you can't cast in wildshape until very high level... they're a tier 2 caster.

I'd go so far as to say that a 15th level moon druid in a party with a great weapon battlemaster fighter, a great weapon vengeance paladin, and a pure wizard may feel underpowered relative to the rest of their party at that level.

At low levels a lot of stuff may seem awesome, or over powered. A great example is the monk with 2-3 attacks every round. But as you get into the higher tiers, you realize the monk is a support class. They don't really get any strong in pure combat. Where they shine is with their other abilities. Same with the druid.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I was only able to play my underdark land druid for a handful of sessions from level 2 to 3, but I was also pleasantly surprised at the number of things I was able to do. As a land druid my shape shifting wasn't as overtly powerful but at level 2 a panther can hold it's own in melee for a bit. The forms also offer a lot of utility even at low levels. Getting a climb speed or shifting into a horse that has 60ft movement came in handy a couple times.

We were playing Tomb of Annihilation so having goodberry and create water to completely nullify the dangers of starvation was pretty neat. It didn't take very long for my character to question why the party even bothered to get an NPC guide.

 

[jgsugden]

At low levels a lot of stuff may seem awesome, or over powered. A great example is the monk with 2-3 attacks every round. But as you get into the higher tiers, you realize the monk is a support class. They don't really get any strong in pure combat. Where they shine is with their other abilities. Same with the druid.

Recall that this thread is about how awesome (overpowered) the druid is. Not how it is a really great support class. Arguing it is merely a support class once you leave the first tier of play is agreeing with my position in this thread: The moon druid is strong at levels 2 through 4. Once you hit 5th and other classes get their big abilities, they fall back in line. By medium to higher tiers they fall behind. Even when they can wildshape at will and cast spells in wildshape, they're still on the lower edge of power - they do not have class abilities to augment their spellcasting and do not have the strongest spell list. Their animal forms are fine melee combatants, but are nothing compared to what we get out of a fighter, paladin, barbarian or other multi-attacker great weapon PC (or magic augmented PC) that is efficiently built and run. And they can also be glass pistols - they generally have lower ACs compared to their peers and may go down very fast in certain combat situations (despite having the truck of extra hps).

 

[neogod22]

Recall that this thread is about how awesome (overpowered) the druid is. Not how it is a really great support class. Arguing it is merely a support class once you leave the first tier of play is agreeing with my position in this thread: The moon druid is strong at levels 2 through 4. Once you hit 5th and other classes get their big abilities, they fall back in line. By medium to higher tiers they fall behind. Even when they can wildshape at will and cast spells in wildshape, they're still on the lower edge of power - they do not have class abilities to augment their spellcasting and do not have the strongest spell list. Their animal forms are fine melee combatants, but are nothing compared to what we get out of a fighter, paladin, barbarian or other multi-attacker great weapon PC (or magic augmented PC) that is efficiently built and run. And they can also be glass pistols - they generally have lower ACs compared to their peers and may go down very fast in certain combat situations (despite having the truck of extra hps).

You missed my point. The druid has always been a support class. It doesn't mean it's underpowered. You just don't understand how they work. At 5th lvl you have summon animals as a spell. You can summon 8 CR 1/4 creatures, that's 10 attacks in a round if you're in your beloved bear form. At lvl 6 you transform into a CR 2 Creature and can still summon 8 creatures. At lvl 7, you get summon woodland beings or summon minor elemental. The druid's strength is the fact that they have a lot of spells that work on concentration. When a druid wants to step back and cast spells, especially at high level, they can unleash the fury of nature. Shoe horning a druid into what they can do in wild form only means you don't understand the druid.

 

[TwoSix]

I feel like OP's thesis that moon druids are really strong in Tier 1 is pretty much proven.

 

[jgsugden]

You missed my point. The druid has always been a support class. It doesn't mean it's underpowered. You just don't understand how they work.

Please don't tell me what I know. I've DMed for multiple moon druids for prolonged periods and played one myself through level 13. I have been playing D&D since the 70s. Don't tell people they don't know what they're saying if you know nothing about them. That is the type of thing that gets you blocked by a decent number of people around here.

At 5th lvl you have summon animals as a spell. You can summon 8 CR 1/4 creatures, that's 10 attacks in a round if you're in your beloved bear form.

Unless you lose concentration - and note that you do not get to choose the summoned creatures - the DM does. Further, anyone that has used this spell knows there are a lot of limitations that prevent 10 attacks every round. In addition to your loss of concentration, spacing challenges and sweeping effects that kill your summons commonly limit their efficacy.

At lvl 6 you transform into a CR 2 Creature and can still summon 8 creatures.

A few extra hps and a +1 to hit and damage is the most common net benefit when in wild form - an advantage, but not really a notable change.

At lvl 7, you get summon woodland beings or summon minor elemental. The druid's strength is the fact that they have a lot of spells that work on concentration.

AND CAN ONLY CAST ONE OF THEM BEFORE GOING INTO WILDSHAPE. Once that concentration breaks, they can't cast another (until high level) unless they abandon their form. This is a real problem for melee spellcasters, especially ones with relatively low defenses like a wildshaped druid.

When a druid wants to step back and cast spells, especially at high level, they can unleash the fury of nature.

Which, as noted repeatedly, is a second tier spellcasting fury. It is relatively weak due to a weaker spell selection compared to wizards and sorcerers - and honestly, even to warlocks at higher levels (once they get their 3 5th level spells per SR + 6th, 7th, etc... level spells per LR and usually a Rod spell once per LR).

Shoe horning a druid into what they can do in wild form only means you don't understand the druid.

*Sigh*. The forms are the mother-loving BACKBONE of the moon druid. All their subclass abilities (except 14th level) focus on it. They moon druid is a WEAKER spellcaster at medium and higher level - so if you're arguing that the animal/elemental form is not that important and they are weaker spellcasters - and those are the core two elements of the class....

Summary: They're below average in spellcasting power throughout their existence, and fall off being a competitive melee force as they leave the lower mid-level range.

I feel like OP's thesis that moon druids are really strong in Tier 1 is pretty much proven.

Nobody seems to have ever argued that they are not very strong, if not overpowered, relative to peer classes in melee from levels 2 through 4. It was just the discussion that followed the initial statement that has been challenged.

I'm also done on this topic.

 

[Zardnaar]

Recall that this thread is about how awesome (overpowered) the druid is. Not how it is a really great support class. Arguing it is merely a support class once you leave the first tier of play is agreeing with my position in this thread: The moon druid is strong at levels 2 through 4. Once you hit 5th and other classes get their big abilities, they fall back in line. By medium to higher tiers they fall behind. Even when they can wildshape at will and cast spells in wildshape, they're still on the lower edge of power - they do not have class abilities to augment their spellcasting and do not have the strongest spell list. Their animal forms are fine melee combatants, but are nothing compared to what we get out of a fighter, paladin, barbarian or other multi-attacker great weapon PC (or magic augmented PC) that is efficiently built and run. And they can also be glass pistols - they generally have lower ACs compared to their peers and may go down very fast in certain combat situations (despite having the truck of extra hps).

This I prefer the land Druid at higher levels. Sure being in animal form is cute but front loading the damage with a lightning bolt or whatever is better than mucking around with a giant stag or whatever.

As a DM you can generally ignore the wildshape part. Whatever spell they cast before wildshaping might be annoying but its still annoying from a land Druid. Moon Druid starts off strong becomes average, gets good again with elemental wild shape (air is good), and then becomes average again until level 20 where you can use it for a big bucket of hit points (and the DM should just use power word kill instead).

Healing spirit spell is probably OP to out right broken as well. I'll probably not allow that spell or the summoning Druid from Xanathars into a party based game.

 

[neogod22]

Please don't tell me what I know. I've DMed for multiple moon druids for prolonged periods and played one myself through level 13. I have been playing D&D since the 70s. Don't tell people they don't know what they're saying if you know nothing about them. That is the type of thing that gets you blocked by a decent number of people around here.Unless you lose concentration - and note that you do not get to choose the summoned creatures - the DM does. Further, anyone that has used this spell knows there are a lot of limitations that prevent 10 attacks every round. In addition to your loss of concentration, spacing challenges and sweeping effects that kill your summons commonly limit their efficacy.A few extra hps and a +1 to hit and damage is the most common net benefit when in wild form - an advantage, but not really a notable change.AND CAN ONLY CAST ONE OF THEM BEFORE GOING INTO WILDSHAPE. Once that concentration breaks, they can't cast another (until high level) unless they abandon their form. This is a real problem for melee spellcasters, especially ones with relatively low defenses like a wildshaped druid.Which, as noted repeatedly, is a second tier spellcasting fury. It is relatively weak due to a weaker spell selection compared to wizards and sorcerers - and honestly, even to warlocks at higher levels (once they get their 3 5th level spells per SR + 6th, 7th, etc... level spells per LR and usually a Rod spell once per LR).*Sigh*. The forms are the mother-loving BACKBONE of the moon druid. All their subclass abilities (except 14th level) focus on it. They moon druid is a WEAKER spellcaster at medium and higher level - so if you're arguing that the animal/elemental form is not that important and they are weaker spellcasters - and those are the core two elements of the class....

Summary: They're below average in spellcasting power throughout their existence, and fall off being a competitive melee force as they leave the lower mid-level range.Nobody seems to have ever argued that they are not very strong, if not overpowered, relative to peer classes in melee from levels 2 through 4. It was just the discussion that followed the initial statement that has been challenged.

I'm also done on this topic.

You say you've played a druid to 13, but you seem to not have played it well. Sure a DM can choose what type of creature you summon, but you still choose the hit dice. I play in AL and I have yet played with a DM that cared enough to choose what I summon, even at conventions. Second when I talked about your 4th level summons, I think you forgot the word OR in my sentence. So I was confused at first what you meant. 3rd, really you keep focusing on losing concentration? What usually equates to a saving throw of 10? You can't beat a 55% chance of making the save before bonuses? Just because you've been playing since the 70s as you claim, doesn't mean you know everything about D&D. YOU APPARENTLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY A DRUID since these concepts seem new to you.

 

[neogod22]

This I prefer the land Druid at higher levels. Sure being in animal form is cute but front loading the damage with a lightning bolt or whatever is better than mucking around with a giant stag or whatever.

As a DM you can generally ignore the wildshape part. Whatever spell they cast before wildshaping might be annoying but its still annoying from a land Druid. Moon Druid starts off strong becomes average, gets good again with elemental wild shape (air is good), and then becomes average again until level 20 where you can use it for a big bucket of hit points (and the DM should just use power word kill instead).

Healing spirit spell is probably OP to out right broken as well. I'll probably not allow that spell or the summoning Druid from Xanathars into a party based game.

Spell casting wise, there isn't much of a difference between land and moon. Just you have a few extra spells learned. Sure some are spells not on the spell list, but they could've done better. I can see may be limiting healing spirit, but why ban a subclass?