Thoughts on Eldritch Knight Polearm Build

neogod22

Explorer
They went out of their way to specify that the target had to be within the spell's range. If they weren't trying to prevent the use of reach weapons, what would be the point of that language? Other than reach weapons, there are very few ways to make melee attacks against targets more than 5 feet away.
Because the cantrips were created specifically for Bladesingers who need to use 1 handed weapons and have a free,hand, then as an afterthought said "all wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers" can take it too. The spell does not require you to have a hand free, therefore does not require you to use a 1 handed weapon. Seeing how they tend to make changes and then not go back to see if those changes work or make sense before print, it is easy to for them to not have foreseen people wanting to use reach weapons with them.
 

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Dausuul

Legend
Because the cantrips were created specifically for Bladesingers who need to use 1 handed weapons and have a free,hand, then as an afterthought said "all wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers" can take it too. The spell does not require you to have a hand free, therefore does not require you to use a 1 handed weapon.
The designers very specifically said that the spell only works on targets within 5 feet. When, other than reach weapons, would such a restriction ever come into play?
 


Dausuul

Legend
He said it on Twitter because he didn't want to admit that he was wrong.
No, they said it in the text of the spell.

Come on. The spell is utterly, perfectly clear about how it works. There is no reason whatever to believe it was an oversight; the only place that restriction is ever likely to come into play is with reach weapons. When asked, the designers confirmed that was their intent.

You can house-rule it any way you want, but for anyone who wants to discuss the rules in the book - either RAW or RAI - this is how it works.
 

They went out of their way to specify that the target had to be within the spell's range. If they weren't trying to prevent the use of reach weapons, what would be the point of that language? Other than reach weapons, there are very few ways to make melee attacks against targets more than 5 feet away.
Are there any spells which do have a listed range of whatever you can hit with your melee weapon? If their goal was to get across the idea that you're attacking an enemy with the spell, then listing a range of 5 feet would convey that (if you forget about the existence of reach weapons); in any case, listing the range as 10 feet would have been misleading, since that could be read as to confer additional reach to greatswords and whatnot. Without "melee" being a codified range in this edition, this type of spell is difficult to implement.

Remember that NPCs and monsters cast the same spells that PCs do, and giants all have reach with their weapons. The basic rules regarding disengagement and ranged attacks seem to have been written entirely without consideration for the existence of reach beyond 5 feet, since you can run circles around a giant or glaive-wielder and shoot them from 10 feet away with no penalty. And don't rangers have a whirlwind attack that only hits adjacent targets, without regard for weapon reach?

It seems obvious to me that one of the following two things must have happened: Either 1) There was an oversight, and they simply forgot about melee attacks with non-standard reach when writing these rules; or 2) They were aware of these issues, but chose to avoid clarifying them, because this is supposed to be a game of DM adjudication rather than precise technical language.

The alternative - that they had a very strong balance-derived or thematic reason for why these abilities would only work out to five feet, regardless of the weapon or wielder involved - seems unlikely. The existing rules simply aren't precise enough to support that argument.
 

neogod22

Explorer
No, they said it in the text of the spell.

Come on. The spell is utterly, perfectly clear about how it works. There is no reason whatever to believe it was an oversight; the only place that restriction is ever likely to come into play is with reach weapons. When asked, the designers confirmed that was their intent.

You can house-rule it any way you want, but for anyone who wants to discuss the rules in the book - either RAW or RAI - this is how it works.
I can have whatever opinion I want. I can interpret anything any way I want when I'm DMing. I specifically said these things in,my 1st post, and specifically said, WHEN I AM PLAYING, I ASK THE DM. If you have a problem with my opinion, I don't care. Don't come at me saying my opinion is wrong. Page 5 in Xanathars Guide under DM Adjudicates the Rules state "One rule overrides all others: the DM is the final authority on how the rules work in play."
 

Dausuul

Legend
Are there any spells which do have a listed range of whatever you can hit with your melee weapon?
All of the "smite" spells work that way. The language there is "The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, [stuff happens]." The range of the spell is "self."

It's much shorter and cleaner than the wording of green-flame blade and booming blade. They really did go out of their way to limit the range to 5 feet.

Remember that NPCs and monsters cast the same spells that PCs do, and giants all have reach with their weapons.

So that wording is aimed at preventing giants from abusing green-flame blade and booming blade? Seriously?

The existing rules simply aren't precise enough to support that argument.

If the target is not within the spell's 5-foot range, the spell fails. How much more precise does it need to be?
 

hastur_nz

First Post
I was thinking over possible build options for the Eldritch Knight and since I like halberds I was wondering how it would do with Polearm Master. At first I thought it would be fun to combine reach weapons with Booming Blade [...] even without the interactions Polearm Master and War Caster are just good feats to have on an Eldritch Knight so the build performs pretty well before it goes online. I'm aware that it's probably not optimal dps, but if I cared for such things I could just go Dex with Sharpshooter. I find this build appealing because I've always liked gishes and halberds and mechanically I find this interaction pretty neat. I haven't seen discussion of this on these forums so what do you think about it?

Personally, I've never seen Booming Blade or Polearm Master and/or War Caster as a reason to play an Eldritch Knight, so I'd caution against making those the cornerstone reasons for choosing that class over something else that swings a Halberd. When I ran my EK (from 1-6 before I multi-classed), and had a lot of fun with it, I had Booming Blade on my list but almost never actually cast it. I got a lot more mileage out of spells like Eldritch Blast and Hex (via Magic Initiate feat), Shield, then to a lesser degree Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good and even good old Magic Missile. But really, Shield was probably the defining difference between me and our more "regular" fighter types. If I'd continued EK or multi-classed into Wizard, I'd have looked forward to Misty Step and then Counterspell and Haste, but to be honest those are only achieved at quite high level so unless you're already starting mid-level, not a great reason to go EK...
 

All of the "smite" spells work that way. The language there is "The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, [stuff happens]." The range of the spell is "self."
It also eats your concentration slot, and has entirely different timing from the Smite class feature from which it is based. If anything, that's strong evidence for the designers simply not having a unified design mechanic.

Maybe they had enough time between those two books coming out for them to realize that the mechanics of the smite line of spells were insufficient. The PHB was a rush job with numerous such mechanical oversights, and it was too late for them to fix it, but they didn't want to propagate that flawed design with the Bladesinger. If Booming Blade took your concentration slot, then it wouldn't be terribly useful for its intended user.

So that wording is aimed at preventing giants from abusing green-flame blade and booming blade? Seriously?
No. There are no giants which know Booming Blade by default. Booming Blade was only ever intended for use by Bladesingers, who were (apparently) limited to one-handed weapons.

What I'm saying is that, in the unlikely scenario that this spell ended up in the hands of someone it was never intended for, the DM would figure it out.
If the target is not within the spell's 5-foot range, the spell fails. How much more precise does it need to be?
Are you honestly arguing that they intended for this spell to work with polearms if you take the Spell Sniper feat? You're arguing that the designers sat down and had a conversation, where-in they decided that Booming Blade should work with greatswords and spears but not with glaives or halberds (because that would be over-powered or not-thematic or something); but then they agreed that it would be perfectly fine (balanced and thematic) if that glaive-wielder also had the feat that was designed to enhance precision sharpshooting with magic rays? That scenario seems likely to you?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
So to the OPS question:

At level 7:
1d10+5 + 1d8 (and effect) + 1d10+5 = 25.5
VS
1d10+5 + 1d10+5 + 1d4+5 = 28.5

At level 11:
1d10+5 + 2d8 (and effect) + 1d10+5 = 30
VS
1d10+5 + 1d10+5 + 1d10+5 + 1d4+5 = 39

What you are wanting to do will work, but it is inferior to the normal option.

If I may offer some advice for an Eldritch Knight.
1. Use spells primarily for defense or utility
2. For offensive spells consider utilizing your action surge. 2 Burning hands casts on the same turn does almost the damage of a fireball (you can do this at level 3. Even at level 13 (when you first get level 3 spells), two casts of fireball is really devastating.
3. Attack with your weapon as normal and don't try to cast offensive buff spells unless you can prebuff them.
 

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