D&D 5E Game Theory. CR and 5E Encounter System.


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Psikerlord#

Explorer
I looked at the preview section. The amendments presented look a little ham-fisted.
I'd prefer amendments to spells than just removing 20+ spells from the list.
The single death saving throw seems brutish.
Of course this is very subjective. :)

Sure, it is intended to be fairly brutal and uncompromising.
 


For our current D20 future campaign, our DM just lets us roll con-saves if we spam healing items. Because all those chemicals are bound to have adverse effects on the body when over-used.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I haven't DMed the game long enough into high levels to be able to say much about the robustness of the CR/XP system.

However my feeling is that many of the complaints about it come from people who are either expecting too much of it, or not even using it appropriately but fudging it grossly. I know I fudge it, but at least I don't complain about the results :/



I think that many of those people play in games when one or more of the following are true:

- the DM is not playing the monsters as well as they should be played (the DM probably thinks "I am too good, if I play the monsters at my best, the PCs don't have a chance")

- the DM gives time for a short rest almost after every encounter

- the DM gives more magic items than the standard, which is near-zero

- the characters are created with generous rules on ability scores ("high-powered" campaigns were extremely common in 3e, I think some gaming groups still think it's needed)

The first one is actually the most important point. If the monsters are too weak, try to ask the DM to play them as well as she would play a PC, and see the difference.



Definitely. CR is said to be meant to be used as a threshold, as in "don't use a monster with CR higher than your PC party level". My guess is that a lot of DMs just think it's cool to use a monster of higher CR, but then proceed to play the monster poorly, and then blame the CR instead of themselves.



Even before customising, giving magic items in the first place makes the game easier. The rules were designed to work with zero magic items. The random treasure tables include magic items, but on average not that much.



Feats and multiclassing are either poor or strong choices, depending who you ask. In doubt, I'd say that a fair assessment of the CR/XP system should not include anything officially labelled as "optional".

I do not want to give a judgement of the CR/XP system because I know I am not using it... mainly I run my 5e games by converting old edition adventures on the fly, so the encounters come up with whatever difficulty results from the 5e monsters' own CR and XP after conversion, which of course is different from the original edition's version of the adventure. I do check the CR and adjust the situation in the PC's favor if the CR is too high (e.g. have them catch the monster asleep, surprised, already wounded...), and sometimes I increase/decrease the number of minions.



What is "right pacing" exactly? The players are more responsible than the DM to set the pacing. If they are low on resources and afraid to continue, they stop, otherwise they continue the adventuring day. The DM is primarly responsible to keep them a bit on their toe to discourage the "5 minutes working day" effect, so that the resource management aspect of the game is still interesting, but there is hardly a "right pacing" to be set beforehand.

The ideal pacing is whatever you want to achieve. The 6-8 thing doesn't work so well due to the assumption you have to grind the PCs hp down and 5E has abundant healing. I find some types of adventures easier to do with AD&D/clone etc than 5E, hexcrawls come to mind when you might only get an encounter every 2nd day for example.
 

The encounter guidelines work OK for low levels and for newer players I suppose, theres nothing wrong with them as such. I don't expect them to work that well with feats, multiclassing and power gamers.
The encounter guidelines work better than the ones for 1e and 2e which didn't exist. Or for ones in 90% of other RPGs on the market where they also don't exist.
They work better than the ones for 3e, which were funky. And about as well as the ones for 4e.

The thing is, those rules exist only because they were expected and for writing the published adventures, so they can be done "by the book". The designers knew that once people got a feel for designing encounters, those rules would go out the window.

Its not a deal breaker or anything. Some people round here think 5E is perfect (hint its not) and some editions did certain things better either conceptually or mechanically even if those editions had lots of other problems.
I don't think anyone thinks it's perfect. I just think they don't see the point about complaining. Or feel the need to defend it against attack (especially from non-positive criticism where no solutions are presented).

5e is like capitalism or democracy, where they're pretty flawed—often at an inherent level—but they're the best we have at the moment. Attacking them for the sake of complaining doesn't serve much purpose.

Lots of people do not seem to buy into the 6-8 encounter thing for example or the default 2 short rests assumption but its kind of what the designers were thinking about when they designed short rest rules which may or may not play nice with long rest classes.
True. But lots of people didn't like the 4-5 encounters per day of 3e and 4e either. For many games, balancing around a single encounter per day might be preferable.

Getting the exact right encounters-per-day ONLY matters when you're trying to establish baseline balance/ effectiveness between short rest recharge classes and long rest recharge classes.
Which, even then, is only theoretical as the dice will make effectiveness vary, as will player skill, character optimisation, and a myriad of other factors. And it's pretty much impossible with the average party since you're trying to gauge the comparative effectiveness of four very different characters fulfilling four very different roles. There's no single metric that works: how do you compare how effective the tank was compared to the blaster compared to the healer?

The ideal pacing is whatever you want to achieve. The 6-8 thing doesn't work so well due to the assumption you have to grind the PCs hp down and 5E has abundant healing. I find some types of adventures easier to do with AD&D/clone etc than 5E, hexcrawls come to mind when you might only get an encounter every 2nd day for example.
5e has abundant out-of-combat healing. In combat healing is often weak, as it's hard to heal more damage than is being inflicted. A single encounter can be challenging, regardless if you're on encounter 1 or encounter 8.

The advantage of a 6-8 encounter day is that it's long. You can have a single big encounter that feels like 2 or 3 encounters and still have enough fuel in the tank for 3-4 more regular encounters or 2 scary encounters. Unlike the 4-5 encounter workday, where after an encounter like that you feel tapped and incentivized to rest. It encourages a five minute workday. Trying to have those long multi-encounter dungeons (like in 1e and 2e) felt tricky with 3e, as people exhausted their resources too quickly. So you can have something like the opening of Lost Mine of Phandelver where you have 6 goblin encounters at level 1 without taking 2-3 days.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Or feel the need to defend it against attack (especially from non-positive criticism where no solutions are presented).

.


I think this is probably the most common. Sort of like a person would react when someone starts trashing their country, or favorite band, or something.

If I'm on a message board and people keep going off about how RUSH is horrible, and they suck, and they can't do anything right, etc, I might respond with, "By certain objective measures, they are one of the best bands of all time. Whenever there is a "greatest guitarist of all time" survey, Alex Lifeson is always in the top 5. Whenever there is a "greatest basist of all time", Geddy Lee is always top 5. Whenever there is "greatest drummer of all time", Peart is top 3, often #1. What other band has three members all in the top 5 in their position, let alone every member of the band in the top 5?"

And that response would probably be met with people calling me a RUSH fanboi who thinks they can do no wrong, just like accusations from people here have thrown out at people who have defended 5e. It may sound like I'm a fanboi, but in reality, while I like the band, there are only about a half dozen songs I like. I'm not a fan of the late 80s stuff at all. But I won't mention that because when I"m addressing an unfair attack on them, I'll focus on the best aspects of the group.
 

I think this is probably the most common. Sort of like a person would react when someone starts trashing their country, or favorite band, or something.

If I'm on a message board and people keep going off about how RUSH is horrible, and they suck, and they can't do anything right, etc, I might respond with, "By certain objective measures, they are one of the best bands of all time. Whenever there is a "greatest guitarist of all time" survey, Alex Lifeson is always in the top 5. Whenever there is a "greatest basist of all time", Geddy Lee is always top 5. Whenever there is "greatest drummer of all time", Peart is top 3, often #1. What other band has three members all in the top 5 in their position, let alone every member of the band in the top 5?"

And that response would probably be met with people calling me a RUSH fanboi who thinks they can do no wrong, just like accusations from people here have thrown out at people who have defended 5e. It may sound like I'm a fanboi, but in reality, while I like the band, there are only about a half dozen songs I like. I'm not a fan of the late 80s stuff at all. But I won't mention that because when I"m addressing an unfair attack on them, I'll focus on the best aspects of the group.

@Sacrosanct is a modern day warrior! Some might say today's Tom Sawyer.


I've stopped getting too riled up about empty criticisms of 5e these days, too (note: I'm not saying the OP is entirely empty criticism). I love the game, it's flexibility, and learning from the many here who float ideas that are fun to try out at the table.

- Player feats "breaking" your game? Give the monsters some of those same feats.
- Too many rests? Have the baddies crash into the camp interrupting the rest and catching the party with no armor.
- Can't squeeze in 6-8 encounters in the adventuring day? Stop equating encounters with combats. Social interaction, no matter how short, can count towards the total. Or, as others have indicated, ignore the 6-8 "requirement" and just use as many you need to help advance the story.
- Big Bad getting whupped too easily by the party? Give more HP on the fly. Have a fresh array of minions barge in to interrupt the fight and heal the BBEG or give the BBEG a chance to escape. Have that BBEG actually turn out to be a Lieutenant or whatevs.
- etc etc

As trite as it sounds, just be creative and have fun.
 
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KenNYC

Explorer
It’s important to understand that the 5e design differentiates between a 24 hour day and an “adventuring day.”

While the default testing rules encourage them to align fairly closely, I think one of the reasons the PHB didn’t tie a long rest to sleep was because of this separation between the two.

The game is designed around the idea that failure is not fun. Thus, you should succeed more often than fail. This makes it feel considerably easier than, say, AD&D. I’m not sure it’s really all that much easier that 3e or 4e, but it is much less complicated and I think that contributes to that feel.

But it’s also relatively easy to find a balance that works for your table. And it’s very easy to tweak to make it play similar to AD&D with streamlined rules. Our game has a very AD&D feel because that’s basically what I like running. But I also like the simpler rule structure, and we’ve tweaked it further to better fit our style. I highly recommend the approach - make the game work for you and your setting/campaign.

May I ask how you tweaked it?
 

werecorpse

Adventurer
Here is a summary of my tweaks

- removal of GWM & SS feats
- long rest recover no hit points just half maximum hit dice which can be spent immediately
- every failed death save or critical hit taken results in a chance (or increased chance) of suffering a lingering injury

IMO lingering injuries are crucial. The lingering injuries take time or high level magic to recover. They have a mechanical impact such as "lose 10' speed", "vulnerable to a type of damage", "disadvantage to all wisdom ability checks" or "only recover half HP when healed" etc. The purpose is to have a negative impact that isn't permanent.

The players actually love it and take great joy when a companion gets what they call "a touch of the lung" ( meaning a chance to get a lingering injury) and even more so if required to roll on what they refer to as "the table of fun" (my lingering injures table).
 

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