Comfort withcross gender characters based on your gender

[Lanefan]

He maybe playing a character that is clearly grumpy in the mornings, has nigh-royal bearing, a tendency to get into bar fights, and has an unnatural affinity for stinky cheeses.

Character?

Hell, that sounds like some actual people I've gamed with!

 

[Lanefan]

If the BBEG makes his big speech, and every other player at the table can guess what my character will say in response, then I have played a consistent *personality*. If, at the same time, each player draws a significantly different *illustration* of my character, though, I am 100% fine with that outcome. "But you never established via role-play that Boris has green eyes!" Yeah, live with it, buddy.

I sometimes solve this by digging around online and finding a piece of artwork that at least vaguely resembles the look I have in mind for a character, and have it available to show people if asked.

Let's say we've been playing at the same table for a year, and you've noticed these things: My character habitually defends the helpless, cures the sick and heals the injured, and sometimes accepts the hospitality of a commoner whom my character has rescued or healed. Whenever we're at a tavern, someone says "Hey, that's Boris the Green! I know a song about you!", and I say "Yeah, I'll have a drink and sing along". I challenge foes before striking, offer the enemy a chance to surrender, never lie, and only cast Zone of Truth when everyone in the AoE consents (and agrees to answer each other's questions). When I cast Find Steed, I got something which looks more like an animated rough-hewn sawhorse, than like a stallion or mare. I hunt for game when the party's on the road, and I make my own javelins and arrows with woodcrafting tools (though I buy the metal points). You can reasonably infer that I'm playing a Paladin with the Oath of Ancients and the Folk Hero background.

Funny, I thought from the description that you were playing a Ranger - kind of a poor person's Strider only with some different abilities but with the same general nobility underneath it all.

If you have no idea what anatomy is under Boris's chainmail, nor whether Boris would bear children or sire children, then I have played an *adventurer*, not a gender stereotype.

However, it's almost impossible that the rest of the table would not know whether Boris was male or female. Extremely likely either you or the DM would have many times used "he" or "she" to refer to this character. And so on.

The name 'Boris' strongly implies male. A drawing of the character would likely give some more clues.

If after a year of play I, the player, have no idea that Boris the Green is an elf or what sex/gender they are then you've failed.

Yeah, I kind of have to agree here.

Unless you were intentionally trying to conceal these facts not just from the characters, but also from the players....

If concealment is part of your play of this character then yes, you also have to conceal it from the other players in order to keep their character and player knowledge in synch.

I don't think I've ever tried hiding a race or gender before, but I have on several occasions tried concealing my character's real class and playing it as something else.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

I have failed at your goals, and at Hussar's goals. I have not failed at my goals.

I'm fine with a player saying "My character looks at Boris. What do I see?" Race should be obvious. Sex, with that race and heavy armor, not so obvious.*

Hussar wants to know (and be reminded as needed) my character's race and gender, without looking, just from my character's words and decisions. That's not what I want. Fortunately, we're not at the same table!

* The character sheet has blank fields for SKIN EYES HAIR. Considering Boris's race, I answered NO YES NO, respectively; Boris has eyes, but scales are neither hair nor skin.

If you're playing a Yuan-Ti I don't care what gender it is; I care more about why I'm expected to run in a party containing something we ought to be trying to exterminate.

I've been assuming up to now we're talking about human-or-close mammalian characters with defineable genders and that actually have skin and hair. Silly me.

And does Boris never take its armour off, even to sleep or bathe?

Lan-"technically, that no-yes-no sequence of answers would also apply to warforged"-efan

 

[Hussar]

Add me to the list of people with deep disagreement.

If the BBEG makes his big speech, and every other player at the table can guess what my character will say in response, then I have played a consistent *personality*. If, at the same time, each player draws a significantly different *illustration* of my character, though, I am 100% fine with that outcome. "But you never established via role-play that Boris has green eyes!" Yeah, live with it, buddy.

Let's say we've been playing at the same table for a year, and you've noticed these things: My character habitually defends the helpless, cures the sick and heals the injured, and sometimes accepts the hospitality of a commoner whom my character has rescued or healed. Whenever we're at a tavern, someone says "Hey, that's Boris the Green! I know a song about you!", and I say "Yeah, I'll have a drink and sing along". I challenge foes before striking, offer the enemy a chance to surrender, never lie, and only cast Zone of Truth when everyone in the AoE consents (and agrees to answer each other's questions). When I cast Find Steed, I got something which looks more like an animated rough-hewn sawhorse, than like a stallion or mare. I hunt for game when the party's on the road, and I make my own javelins and arrows with woodcrafting tools (though I buy the metal points). You can reasonably infer that I'm playing a Paladin with the Oath of Ancients and the Folk Hero background.

If you consider this a cypher then (shrug) too bad for you; it's good enough for many DMs and many players.

If you have no idea what anatomy is under Boris's chainmail, nor whether Boris would bear children or sire children, then I have played an *adventurer*, not a gender stereotype.

If you assume that English is the DM's first language, that's on you; no one owes you an obligation to speak with enough of an accent that you can tell what their first language was. Likewise, if you assume that Common is Boris's first language, that's also on you; I don't owe you an obligation to have Boris speak with an accent from Draconic or Elvish or Infernal, and if you're baffled by a non-human whose behavior falls within the range of behavior you expect from humans, then that's yet again your problem, not mine.

Well, the fact that the character is named "Boris" is a pretty big sign being held up that the character is male. Now, if that character is female and no one at any point in time, no NPC, no PC no one has ever mentioned the fact that it's somewhat unusual for a woman to be named Boris because no one at the table, including the DM has the slightest idea that your character is female, then that's on you.

And, just to echo Lanefan, has your character never even take his or her helmet off?

 

[Riley37]

Funny, I thought from the description that you were playing a Ranger - kind of a poor person's Strider only with some different abilities but with the same general nobility underneath it all.

Zone of Truth and Find Steed are on the paladin list, and not on the ranger list. I'm glad that personality came through. That's my intent: *personality*, as its own thing, not as a property of race or gender.

Yuan-ti and Warforged are not among the PHB list of core races, but one of the core races is scaly.

However, it's almost impossible that the rest of the table would not know whether Boris was male or female.

Hussar seems to think that unless Boris's words and deeds, as roleplayed, signal Boris's gender, then no, the table would not. Perhaps you and he disagree?

And, just to echo Lanefan, has your character never even take his or her helmet off?

Hunh. Apparently this Hussar disagrees with previous Hussar.

Why do you ask about the helmet? You're the one demanding that everyone *perform* a character's gender. From what you've posted early, you should be clearly establishing, on the regular, *by narration*, that your character is a manly man; failure to do so, is failure to role-play properly. Either that, or perhaps "you gotta roleplay it so strongly and stereotypically that everyone notices" a rule for female characters, and not a rule for male characters?

Is male the default, core gender, and female a splatbook variant?

 

[ccs]

Well, the fact that the character is named "Boris" is a pretty big sign being held up that the character is male. Now, if that character is female and no one at any point in time, no NPC, no PC no one has ever mentioned the fact that it's somewhat unusual for a woman to be named Boris because no one at the table, including the DM has the slightest idea that your character is female, then that's on you.

And, just to echo Lanefan, has your character never even take his or her helmet off?

Given the weird names, weird spellings, & weird(er) pronunciations I've witnessed RL humans saddling their children with over the past 20 years I'd not automatically assume Boris was male.

Though this would always be the default image that'd spring to my minds-eye when I heard the characters name:

After that there'd be a quick mental correction of course....

 

[Hussar]

Zone of Truth and Find Steed are on the paladin list, and not on the ranger list. I'm glad that personality came through. That's my intent: *personality*, as its own thing, not as a property of race or gender.

Yuan-ti and Warforged are not among the PHB list of core races, but one of the core races is scaly.



Hussar seems to think that unless Boris's words and deeds, as roleplayed, signal Boris's gender, then no, the table would not. Perhaps you and he disagree?



Hunh. Apparently this Hussar disagrees with previous Hussar.

Why do you ask about the helmet? You're the one demanding that everyone *perform* a character's gender. From what you've posted early, you should be clearly establishing, on the regular, *by narration*, that your character is a manly man; failure to do so, is failure to role-play properly. Either that, or perhaps "you gotta roleplay it so strongly and stereotypically that everyone notices" a rule for female characters, and not a rule for male characters?

Is male the default, core gender, and female a splatbook variant?

Nope. Jeez, I even REPOSTED my arguments above. Did you miss the bit where I totally agreed with [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] that simply using a bloody gender specific PRONOUN was enough to satisfy me?

Look, I get the idea that I've rather touched a nerve in people by even suggesting that their perfectly crafted character could be better portrayed, but, sheesh, do you really have to start inventing things to be annoyed about?

One more time for the slow of reading. SO LONG AS THE PEOPLE AT YOUR TABLE RECOGNIZE THE SALIENT FEATURES OF YOUR CHARACTER I AM HAPPY. How you achieve that is totally up to you. Heck, something as simple as actually using a female miniature at the table would be good enough. ((Granted I always play on virtual tabletop, so such a thing is pretty bloody easy to achieve))

 

[Umbran]

But, Umbran, I've been pretty specific all the way along. I AM talking about someone who makes ZERO attempt to convey the gender of their character.

You are talking about someone who conveys zero about their character AT ALL.

I quote: "So, someone comes to the table with a character, makes zero attempt to actually display that character to the group." Note that gender is absent from that?

Your self-image of being consistent is not supported by the text - in which we started with talking about exactly how much a player must hammer on their gender in the portrayal, to you speaking of "the cypher character" - your words. I'm sorry, but you elided into a strawman. You have wandered from not being happy with how much people put into specifically signalling character gender specifically, into effectively accusing them of not displaying anything at all.

That's not fair, and it isn't a way to have a constructive discussion. So, until you come back around, I think we are done here.

 

[fjw70]

I am male and indifferent. To be honest gender rarely comes up during play. If someone is playing cross gender I forgot half the time anyway since it just doesn’t come up that often.

 

[Jacob Marley]

I sometimes solve this by digging around online and finding a piece of artwork that at least vaguely resembles the look I have in mind for a character, and have it available to show people if asked.

I use a miniature.

DM: "What's your race?"
Me: "Look at the mini."
"What's your gender?"
"Look at the mini."
"Hair color?"
"Mini."
"Weapon?"
"Mini!"
"Armor?"
"MINI!"
"Class, let's see... fighter."
"Nope, bard."
"But you're wearing full plate?!?"
"I couldn't find a dwarf bard mini."