What makes Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter so good?

[UngeheuerLich]

I should be so lucky. None of my players are so disinterested (in mechanical efficiency) or inexpert (in system mastery) as to arrive at something as modest as that.

The fact is: the fix is not for you. I am only asking you agree to the fix for the benefit of others.

Your fix may hinder other people's fun. I am sorry for you that you seem to not have fun. I am also sorry for you that you tool my numbers I just made up as anything more than an example for new players. And I am sorry for you that I don't agree wirh you that we need an official fix here.
I still wait for a screenshot of the characters that do all those terrible things to your monsters and fellow players. Really. Until you somehow show me uneer which conditions you get "twice as much" damage I will take you bit not your complaints seriously.
I am nlt even asking for a calculation. Just the ultimate damage build that double's damage with that feat or that feat in combination with PAM and Lucky if you want. I can then evaluate if I see it as problematic as you and will even support you fix that feat agenda. But not without any facts.

 

[Oofta]

I should be so lucky. None of my players are so disinterested (in mechanical efficiency) or inexpert (in system mastery) as to arrive at something as modest as that.

The fact is: the fix is not for you. I am only asking you agree to the fix for the benefit of others.

No, you're asking that everyone agree with you and your analysis.

Personally, I'll be happy for my buddy if he's having fun with his build, whatever it is. We each make choices on what kind of build we want, each with different strengths and weaknesses. Some are going to be better at some things than others and I'm OK with that. As many people are.

 

[TwoSix]

No, you're asking that everyone agree with you and your analysis.

To be fair, this is hardly [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]'s analysis alone; that GWM and especially SS are probably too strong for one feat is accepted in pretty much every discussion site focused on balance and optimization.

Granted, that's only one subset of the expansive population of 5e players; nonetheless, that's the group with the most investment in finding and identifying problematic feats. Fundamentally, if build balance isn't a concern for your group, than the actual design of the feats shouldn't be of interest to you other than that they provide an experience that matches the concept of the feat.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

To be fair, this is hardly [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]'s analysis alone; that GWM and especially SS are probably too strong for one feat is accepted in pretty much every discussion site focused on balance and optimization.

Granted, that's only one subset of the expansive population of 5e players; nonetheless, that's the group with the most investment in finding and identifying problematic feats. Fundamentally, if build balance isn't a concern for your group, than the actual design of the feats shouldn't be of interest to you other than that they provide an experience that matches the concept of the feat.

That is fundamently wrong. A feat called gwm mist be so good that someone not as adept as some others need to have the feeling that they did the right choice and didn't fell for a trap option. A half-feat called cleave would be a great option. It just has nothing to do with great (heavy) weapons anymore.
Quesrion is if such a feat is needed at all. My take is "yes". Probably something different that is automatic and has no active part.
Or maybe just making it once per turn would be useful as the bonis is fixed then and does not get out of hand. In the case of SS I would even go as far and habe it cost a bonus action.

 

[Sadras]

I have found both those feats OP and have as yet to act on it. OP in a sense that any other fighter-build appears to fall short. I have not done calculations myself - I trust the far better mathematicians here on Enworld. Thankfully I'm only dealing with GWM and not SS (that character retired). But the GWM is a 10th level BM who has a high AC and has dipped into wizard and uses the Shield spell. The sorcerer often Hastes him so he is well-optimised in combat.

Both feats in my opinion require a rethink.

EDIT: The only thing I have done thus far, is amend the flanking rules to limit the ease with which Advantage is gained and which rules assists against a ridiculous high AC.

 

[Oofta]

To be fair, this is hardly [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]'s analysis alone; that GWM and especially SS are probably too strong for one feat is accepted in pretty much every discussion site focused on balance and optimization.

Granted, that's only one subset of the expansive population of 5e players; nonetheless, that's the group with the most investment in finding and identifying problematic feats. Fundamentally, if build balance isn't a concern for your group, than the actual design of the feats shouldn't be of interest to you other than that they provide an experience that matches the concept of the feat.

But the tone we always get from Mr Zapp is that "I have spoken the truth, no other discussion is needed."

There are a lot of options, each with different pluses and minuses. Depending on your campaign, party and other options GWM may be the best choice for people that seek DPR optimization. I don't think that's automatically a bad thing and haven't seen it as an issue in my games. Maybe others have.

As a DM it's my job to challenge whatever PCs the players bring to the table while helping to tell a fun and engaging story. If I can't do that I don't blame the system, I blame myself.

 

[Coroc]

Again, SS and GWM is only a good solution if you go versus Low AC Mobs a lot, or if you can compensate the to hit malus by Advantage or bless.

Advantage requires some Investment of another Party member. Bless requires someone uses and maintains his concentration Slot.

SS and GWM w/o Advantage or bless are like a high bet in a poker game on one side: You bet much in the hope to gain much. But unlike in a poker game your chances to win are lower than if you bet less.

To do damage to a mob you got to hit. The worst damage Output is zilch in the case you do not hit, no matter your build.

A single disadvantage can cancel out three sources of Advantage. A single hit and a botched Constitution save can end a casters bless.

 

[Coroc]

I will do a Little math just in my head:

Lets asume char A Str 16 GWM, Char B Str 18 without GWM. Both got +3 prof. Both use a greataxe for average damage of 7


Mob1 AC12

Char A hits on a rolled (12+5-3-3) 11 and up so 45% of the time for 7+3 +10 =20 average

Char B hits on a rolled (12+0-3-4) 7 and up so 65% of the time for 7+4+0=11 average

Mob2 AC18

Char A hits on a rolled (18+5-3-3) 17 and up so 15% of the time for 7+3 +10 =20 average

Char B hits on a rolled (18+0-3-4) 11 and up so 45% of the time for 7+4+0=11 average

Fazit:

Char B hits the high AC mob as reliable as Char A the low AC mob.

If you asume a 50% Chance to hit gives a balanced average fight then Char B does down both Mobs in average time

Char A does down Mob1 in half the time that char B would Need, hence the felt OP in combat.

But without Advantage or at least bless Char A keeping his -5/+10 active with mob 2 Char B will hit this mob 3 times more often!
Let us do the math for my last Statement: 3*11=33. 1*20=20. So in plain comparison the guy without GWM does 50% more damage to the AC18 mob2.
If the GWM would Switch off -5/+10 then he would have a 5% reduced Chance to hit and 10% less damage vs the guy who took the ASI. well not exactly, ther is this reroll 1s rule which would equalize the damage output a bit.

 

[Oofta]

Again, SS and GWM is only a good solution if you go versus Low AC Mobs a lot, or if you can compensate the to hit malus by Advantage or bless.

While not considering how much the advantage or bless would help other builds, or what else the PCs granting advantage or bless could be doing.

 

[Staffan]

Here's how I see it:

GWM and SS are good feats, possibly the best ones, but not as good as their detractors say they are (at least not Great Weapon Mastery).

In most cases, you would be better off with +2 to Strength or Dexterity. But one of the issues with the feats is that you can take them once you've gotten to Str/Dex 20, so you'll be even better. In addition, they do have a spectacular effect - +10 damage feels really big, even if it mathematically is compensated to some degree by not happening as often.

The feats shine more when you have ways of improving your accuracy, often coming from other party members. This is where Sharpshooter starts getting iffy - most characters who take the feat also have the Archery fighting style for +2 to hit, and they have a lower base damage than twohanders so the cost of a miss is lower.

There are also the secondary effects of the feats: the chance of extra attacks with GWM, and the accuracy benefits of SS. I don't really have a problem with GWM in this regard, because crits and dropping foes are rare enough that it won't be overwhelming. But the benefits of Sharpshooter both aid in accuracy, by removing the two main problems with ranged attacks - disadvantage for long range and the ease with which foes can have cover. That might be a problem.