5e needs a Faiths and Avatars style book

[Paul Farquhar]

In the Realms, there are people who are worshipers of a certain deity first, even though they still pay homage to all deities. In any case, when I talked about the Mystran faith, I was referring to her clergy. In the Realms, clerics do, in fact, put their deity above others when it comes to personal importance.

The Thuggee where a cult dedicated to the Hindu goddess Kali. They worshipped Kali ahead of all other Hindu gods. But they where still Hindus, not Kali-ists. Kali-ism is not a thing. And there are Hindus who worship Kali who are not Thugs.

Also, aside from the common rituals&the likes that most cults of the same deity share, examples of how the cult of a certain deity works in different regions are included in the things that I think should be included in such a book (and it was exactly what I meant when I said that the existence of common practices and goals within a faith doesn't exclude particular interpretation of the worship).

Well, if this hypothetical book had an infinite number of pages, I am sure that would be feasible.

 

[Irennan]

The Thuggee where a cult dedicated to the Hindu goddess Kali. They worshipped Kali ahead of all other Hindu gods. But they where still Hindus, not Kali-ists. Kali-ism is not a thing. And there are Hindus who worship Kali who are not Thugs.

How is this in contrast with what I said? Plus, since we were talking clerics, generally speaking, D&D clerics do indeed dedicate most of their energies and faith to 1 deity (and although clerics of a pantheon exist, the default assumption is that a cleric is dedicated to one deity).

Well, if this hypothetical book had an infinite number of pages, I am sure that would be feasible.

In the past, we've been given such examples. If the book is actually dedicated to discussing the gods and faiths woithout half of the page count being given to stat blocks, then it is possible. You don't need a treatise for each god. You can illustrate the common elements and doings of a faith, and then give specific examples of peculiar worship. Ofc, I don't see such a book being likely in the slightest. This doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a valid addition. The SCAG is painfully vague on a lot matters anyway.

 

[gyor]

How is this in contrast with what I said? Plus, since we were talking clerics, generally speaking, D&D clerics do indeed dedicate most of their energies and faith to 1 deity (and although clerics of a pantheon exist, the default assumption is that a cleric is dedicated to one deity).



In the past, we've been given such examples. If the book is actually dedicated to discussing the gods and faiths woithout half of the page count being given to stat blocks, then it is possible. You don't need a treatise for each god. You can illustrate the common elements and doings of a faith, and then give specific examples of peculiar worship. Ofc, I don't see such a book being likely in the slightest. This doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a valid addition. The SCAG is painfully vague on a lot matters anyway.

See this is why Deities should be built like characters, give them class levels, add in a universal ability to cast any ritual, and an innate ability to cast wish as a lair action and the discorpration ability, ability scores, Prof in every skills, weapons, armour and save and your done, immune to none magical damage, legendary resistance, no huge stat block needed.

Example Zandilar race God, 20 Rogue (Arcane Tricklser)/20 Bard (College of Glamour),
Charisma 30, Dex 26, Con 26, Intel 26, Wisdom 16, Strength 26 done.



God racial traits: know all rituals, immune to none magical damage done, Discorporation, Legendary Resistance, Prof everything.

Just a quick down and dirty way to do it that won't take up a lot of space.

 

[gyor]

How is this in contrast with what I said? Plus, since we were talking clerics, generally speaking, D&D clerics do indeed dedicate most of their energies and faith to 1 deity (and although clerics of a pantheon exist, the default assumption is that a cleric is dedicated to one deity).



In the past, we've been given such examples. If the book is actually dedicated to discussing the gods and faiths woithout half of the page count being given to stat blocks, then it is possible. You don't need a treatise for each god. You can illustrate the common elements and doings of a faith, and then give specific examples of peculiar worship. Ofc, I don't see such a book being likely in the slightest. This doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a valid addition. The SCAG is painfully vague on a lot matters anyway.

In a sense a cleric is in a sacred marriage with their God, but this still not a monotheistic faith and a cleric of God X still acknowledges the existence of other Gods, and will often have knowledge about allied and enemy deities including myths.

A Pantheon will also often have more universal belief systems, for example the Mulhorand have Maat, and other religious beliefs common to all or almost all of their Gods, for example all acknowledge Ra as the ruler of the Pantheon, even priests of Set, and treat the God accordingly.

The Seldarine have key myths, beliefs, teachings, and secrets common to the priests, clerics, and other religious sorts of all the Seldarine. Priests of Zandilar, Deep Sashlees,
Moonbow, Sheverash, Firecloak, and so on all teach the myth that elves come from the blood of Corellon Larethian, not just his Priests.

And the priesthoods of deities that are allies will usually be allies themselves in FR.

And temples of more powerful gods like Tempus will some times contain shrines to the deities that serve them, like the Red Knight and maybe Uthgar, or Mystra with Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon.

So even for clerics that focus only on a single god, the Pantheon still matters, their mythologies with be filled with stories that include other gods, divine alliances, celestial/fiendish servants/other servants, Saints/Chosen/Ancestors/Aspects/Avatars and so on, competing philosophies, hereseys, isolated cults, Domains, and so on.

 

[Irennan]

In a sense a cleric is in a sacred marriage with their God, but this still not a monotheistic faith and a cleric of God X still acknowledges the existence of other Gods, and will often have knowledge about allied and enemy deities including myths.

A Pantheon will also often have more universal belief systems, for example the Mulhorand have Maat, and other religious beliefs common to all or almost all of their Gods, for example all acknowledge Ra as the ruler of the Pantheon, even priests of Set, and treat the God accordingly.

The Seldarine have key myths, beliefs, teachings, and secrets common to the priests, clerics, and other religious sorts of all the Seldarine. Priests of Zandilar, Deep Sashlees,
Moonbow, Sheverash, Firecloak, and so on all teach the myth that elves come from the blood of Corellon Larethian, not just his Priests.

And the priesthoods of deities that are allies will usually be allies themselves in FR.

And temples of more powerful gods like Tempus will some times contain shrines to the deities that serve them, like the Red Knight and maybe Uthgar, or Mystra with Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon.

So even for clerics that focus only on a single god, the Pantheon still matters, their mythologies with be filled with stories that include other gods, divine alliances, celestial/fiendish servants/other servants, Saints/Chosen/Ancestors/Aspects/Avatars and so on, competing philosophies, hereseys, isolated cults, Domains, and so on.

True, that's why I said that they dedicate most of their energy and faith to 1 deity, not that they don't recognize other gods. You can be dedicated to something without having to refuse everything else.

 

[dave2008]

See this is why Deities should be built like characters, give them class levels, add in a universal ability to cast any ritual, and an innate ability to cast wish as a lair action and the discorpration ability, ability scores, Prof in every skills, weapons, armour and save and your done, immune to none magical damage, legendary resistance, no huge stat block needed.

Example Zandilar race God, 20 Rogue (Arcane Tricklser)/20 Bard (College of Glamour),
Charisma 30, Dex 26, Con 26, Intel 26, Wisdom 16, Strength 26 done.



God racial traits: know all rituals, immune to none magical damage done, Discorporation, Legendary Resistance, Prof everything.

Just a quick down and dirty way to do it that won't take up a lot of space.

However, if you write out the features of a 20th level rogue and 20th level bard, that gets you about 2 pages of a stat block. Then add the deity features on top of that...

Simply saying Rogue 20 doesn't cut it in my book. I want / need the abilities of the god on the stat block.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

See this is why Deities should be built like characters, give them class levels, add in a universal ability to cast any ritual, and an innate ability to cast wish as a lair action and the discorpration ability, ability scores, Prof in every skills, weapons, armour and save and your done, immune to none magical damage, legendary resistance, no huge stat block needed.

Example Zandilar race God, 20 Rogue (Arcane Tricklser)/20 Bard (College of Glamour),
Charisma 30, Dex 26, Con 26, Intel 26, Wisdom 16, Strength 26 done.



God racial traits: know all rituals, immune to none magical damage done, Discorporation, Legendary Resistance, Prof everything.

Just a quick down and dirty way to do it that won't take up a lot of space.

That might work for FR, and maybe Mystara, where most deities are actual gods with a distinct existence.
Pointless or outright impossible for Eberron for example.

But really? How often is the Dex bonus of an actual deity going to be relevant to normal D&D groups, where PCs rarely advance above level 15?
The above statblock contains nothing of use to them: No details about what they stand for, how they like to be worshipped, how their church is organised, even what domains that they grant or how their clerics are encouraged to behave.
Just a few largely irrelevant stats and a list of special abilities that will be identically repeated in the statblocks of all the other gods detailed in the book.

What demographic of D&D would there actually have demand for this?

 

[gyor]

That might work for FR, and maybe Mystara, where most deities are actual gods with a distinct existence.
Pointless or outright impossible for Eberron for example.

But really? How often is the Dex bonus of an actual deity going to be relevant to normal D&D groups, where PCs rarely advance above level 15?
The above statblock contains nothing of use to them: No details about what they stand for, how they like to be worshipped, how their church is organised, even what domains that they grant or how their clerics are encouraged to behave.
Just a few largely irrelevant stats and a list of special abilities that will be identically repeated in the statblocks of all the other gods detailed in the book.

What demographic of D&D would there actually have demand for this?

In Eberron you don't need too.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

How is this in contrast with what I said? Plus, since we were talking clerics, generally speaking, D&D clerics do indeed dedicate most of their energies and faith to 1 deity (and although clerics of a pantheon exist, the default assumption is that a cleric is dedicated to one deity).

The difference is, whilst clerics are usually dedicated to one deity, each deity does on have it's own religion. They are all parts of the same religion.

In the past, we've been given such examples. If the book is actually dedicated to discussing the gods and faiths woithout half of the page count being given to stat blocks, then it is possible. You don't need a treatise for each god. You can illustrate the common elements and doings of a faith, and then give specific examples of peculiar worship. Ofc, I don't see such a book being likely in the slightest. This doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a valid addition. The SCAG is painfully vague on a lot matters anyway.

Exactly. It has been done before, and without stat blocks and crunch there is no point in republishing what has already been done with "5e" stencilled onto the cover. There is no-one in the world who cannot use Google if they are all that interested.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

See this is why Deities should be built like characters, give them class levels, add in a universal ability to cast any ritual, and an innate ability to cast wish as a lair action and the discorpration ability, ability scores, Prof in every skills, weapons, armour and save and your done, immune to none magical damage, legendary resistance, no huge stat block needed.

Example Zandilar race God, 20 Rogue (Arcane Tricklser)/20 Bard (College of Glamour),
Charisma 30, Dex 26, Con 26, Intel 26, Wisdom 16, Strength 26 done.



God racial traits: know all rituals, immune to none magical damage done, Discorporation, Legendary Resistance, Prof everything.

Just a quick down and dirty way to do it that won't take up a lot of space.

That, I object to on philosophical grounds. The gods should be mysterious and remote. Their powers and teachings open to debate and interpretation. They shouldn't be relegated to the role of monsters for high level PCs to fight.

Why?

1) Gods walking the earth has been done to death has been done to death (quite literally) in the Forgotten Realms. If they are wise (and gods are supposed to be), they will stay well out of it, for self preservation if nothing else.

2) Divine intervention devalues the agency of the player characters. They are supposed to be the heroes of the story, not pawns pushed about by deities who can't be bothered to bash the evil minions themselves.

3) Clerics are already the least popular class (speaking from experience, not dubious statistics). It's not going to help their popularity any if they get how to play their character dictated to them, in a way that not even warlocks have to suffer.

4) Authenticity. Fantasy is all the better for having a sprinkling of real world truths.