Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

[Warpiglet]

Remember though these MC are carefully chosen and designed to be better on balance then getting those things through a single class. The Optimization forum is full of the analysis. That's why its done, and having something well thought out and planned should be encouraged and worked out with the DM first to smooth over any troubles.

Some--many of them? are but not all of them. All but a few combinations are less powerful than a single class character.

Our assumptions shape a great deal. What if someone just likes to play a fighter/magic-user? Ahem, wizard? Is that terrible too? The fear of someone gaming the system can ruin it for the rest of us if we allow it to do so.

 

[smbakeresq]

Sure. All I'm saying is that the words "divine" and "arcane" don't DO anything in 5e. Look it up. If you changed every reference in the cleric or paladin class with the word "divine" to the word "arcane", the class would play exactly the same. Contrast with previous editions, and mechanics like arcane spell failure, scroll use, etc.

If you want to weight those terms with certain setting-building constraints because of dictionary definitions or nostalgia or what have you, that's fine and dandy.


Other than possibly sorlock, I don't either.


Sure, but that's because fighter and rogue have so little built in fluff that there's really no need to refluff it at all.


I don't know if that was me, but it sounds like me. I'm pretty open about being a powergamer. I build characters from a mechanical perspective first, and then I build supporting fluff to make the character cohesive and intriguing. MC builds are simply more interesting to refluff because you have to weave more disparate concepts together. I make no apology for finding MC martial/warlock builds more interesting because of Hexblade. (side note: I'm actually playing a Hexblade Warlock right now, no multiclassing. It's plenty powerful enough even without MCing!)

Divine and Arcane do plenty, but I guess your DM doesn't care about it. Its all over the books as being from a different source, doing different things, etc. I would like hand wave DM too, I don't have that nor am I like that either. As far as a strict sentence in the rules regarding the difference you

Fighter and rogue have plenty of fluff, they just don't have any fluff that appears to be limiting therefore must be declared blasphemous and done away with.

Its fine to be a power gamer, although I think that means you miss out of stuff in the game over the last 35 years. But then you don't care about it because you see it a mechanical construct that you need to make a box to fit it in, so you don't miss anything. You are at least open about it. The game does have an art and drama component to it also, its very good.

Every power gamer I know who played old module A4 loved it and it changed their style. In that module, you start with no equipment and little clothes and nothing else and must get out of the prison before a Volcano explodes and kills you. Its strictly good gameplay and imagination to not die. Look it up and read the module, you might like it.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Divine and Arcane do plenty, but I guess your DM doesn't care about it. Its all over the books as being from a different source, doing different things, etc. I would like hand wave DM too, I don't have that nor am I like that either. As far as a strict sentence in the rules regarding the difference you

Fighter and rogue have plenty of fluff, they just don't have any fluff that appears to be limiting therefore must be declared blasphemous and done away with.

Its fine to be a power gamer, although I think that means you miss out of stuff in the game over the last 35 years. But then you don't care about it because you see it a mechanical construct that you need to make a box to fit it in, so you don't miss anything. You are at least open about it. The game does have an art and drama component to it also, its very good.

Every power gamer I know who played old module A4 loved it and it changed their style. In that module, you start with no equipment and little clothes and nothing else and must get out of the prison before a Volcano explodes and kills you. Its strictly good gameplay and imagination to not die. Look it up and read the module, you might like it.

The converse could be said to hard core role-players: the math/logic puzzle of optimization has been part of the game since its inception, and adds a deep and enjoyable dimension to gameplay. There's nothing wrong with exercising both sides of your brain while playing RPGs.

 

[Satyrn]

That's why its done, and having something well thought out and planned should be encouraged and worked out with the DM first to smooth over any troubles.

This kinda jibes weirdly with how you responded to the multiclassed character Arial presented. It's been well thought out and planned, so he's doing his half of what you want, but your response is to just shut him down, find ways it doesn't work without any suggestion of how to smoothe over any troubles. It looks like you're open to a player multiclassing . . . but not if it's a warlock.

Or if it looks like powergaming. It really looks like you hate powergamers and immediately suspect anyone who multiclasseses is doing it to powergame, and you immediately raise your shields as though a Klingon cruiser just decloaked in front of you.

Can you see any way to smoothe over your troubles with that paladin/warlock tricked into thinking his fiendish pact was a sacred oath ?

 

[smbakeresq]

Some--many of them? are but not all of them. All but a few combinations are less powerful than a single class character.

Our assumptions shape a great deal. What if someone just likes to play a fighter/magic-user? Ahem, wizard? Is that terrible too? The fear of someone gaming the system can ruin it for the rest of us if we allow it to do so.

Some just do and its great! As DM they should be encouraged in every way, especially if they build in a draw back to use as a hook for development and adventure.

But there are some who just do it strictly to exploit the rules in some way shape or form and will brook absolutely no other interpretation of anything that interferes with their PC. You ask them about their PC backstory and they say "Far Traveler so I can get Perception since its great for my PC." There is no art/drama ask to them, they don't even pay attention at the table when you are describing a scene to them, they don't really get the RPG aspect of the game. I have never liked that player and they will always cause problems at the table eventually.

But to each his own.

 

[5ekyu]

Some just do and its great! As DM they should be encouraged in every way, especially if they build in a draw back to use as a hook for development and adventure.

But there are some who just do it strictly to exploit the rules in some way shape or form and will brook absolutely no other interpretation of anything that interferes with their PC. You ask them about their PC backstory and they say "Far Traveler so I can get Perception since its great for my PC." There is no art/drama ask to them, they don't even pay attention at the table when you are describing a scene to them, they don't really get the RPG aspect of the game. I have never liked that player and they will always cause problems at the table eventually.

But to each his own.

breaking news Sometimes people are "bad" where "bad" is defined in this context as "not doing things the way we like."

film at 11.

 

[TwoSix]

Let's say that you've discovered that there's huge synergy between Spore Druid, Mastermind Rogue, and Kensai Monk. It seems to me that the challenge of writing a coherent story for that is kind of like getting an essay assignment to "compare and contrast skateboard culture to Pathan tribes along the Afghan/Pakistan border", or randomly drawing improv acting cues that throw together a neurotic housewife, a serial killer, and a Brazilian ranch-hand. It's an opportunity for creativity and novelty. (Much, dare I say it, like rolling 5 Int and deciding that you're going to play a genius.)

Damn it, now I'm going to be turning that over in my head for the next hour while I'm supposed to be working. Thanks a lot.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Some just do and its great! As DM they should be encouraged in every way, especially if they build in a draw back to use as a hook for development and adventure.

But there are some who just do it strictly to exploit the rules in some way shape or form and will brook absolutely no other interpretation of anything that interferes with their PC. You ask them about their PC backstory and they say "Far Traveler so I can get Perception since its great for my PC." There is no art/drama ask to them, they don't even pay attention at the table when you are describing a scene to them, they don't really get the RPG aspect of the game. I have never liked that player and they will always cause problems at the table eventually.

But to each his own.

Maybe it's an opportunity to draw the player into the storytelling. Come up with the backstory FOR them, and then have it keep popping up during the game, so that the backstory becomes relevant. Not in a way that tries to limit/control them, but to make them feel like they are an integral part of the game world. Far Traveler in particular offers some fertile ground for doing that.

 

[Satyrn]

Damn it, now I'm going to be turning that over in my head for the next hour while I'm supposed to be working. Thanks a lot.

Suggestion: The spores are midichlorians


Extra Credit: Make it awesome enough that your DM doesn't yell BANNED the moment you mention midichlorians.

 

[TwoSix]

Divine and Arcane do plenty, but I guess your DM doesn't care about it. Its all over the books as being from a different source, doing different things, etc. I would like hand wave DM too, I don't have that nor am I like that either. As far as a strict sentence in the rules regarding the difference you

I don't really care about it when I DM, and my DMs trust me enough to let me run my characters in the flavor I like.

And as I said, my statement was purely about mechanical weight. There's no rules element in the game that's modified if the class you're playing is arcane or divine. In the DMG, for example, traditionally "divine" items like Staff of the Python are restricted by class specifically (cleric or druid only), not with reference to divine as a rules element.

Fighter and rogue have plenty of fluff, they just don't have any fluff that appears to be limiting therefore must be declared blasphemous and done away with.

Yea, fighter and rogue are generic enough to refluff easily, heavily flavored classes like paladin and warlock are more of a challenge. The PHB fluff is like the instructions in a Lego set. Sure, I can use it, or I can throw it away and build whatever I want with the pieces I've been given.

Its fine to be a power gamer, although I think that means you miss out of stuff in the game over the last 35 years. But then you don't care about it because you see it a mechanical construct that you need to make a box to fit it in, so you don't miss anything. You are at least open about it. The game does have an art and drama component to it also, its very good.

Well, I've only been playing for 28 years, so I guess I've missed pretty much everything.

And honestly, thinking that I can't be simultaneously interested in the mechanical aspects of the game AND the narrative aspects of the game is an example of your biases showing. My own RPG credo is very simple; "Play towards conflict." My characters have hooks. They have room to grow and change. If I see the DM offering a hook, I take it. If we're not sure what to do, I pick something and go towards it. Always be making story.

Every power gamer I know who played old module A4 loved it and it changed their style. In that module, you start with no equipment and little clothes and nothing else and must get out of the prison before a Volcano explodes and kills you. Its strictly good gameplay and imagination to not die. Look it up and read the module, you might like it.

I've played very few modules over the years, I've usually made up my adventures from scratch. I'm not sure if that sounds up my alley, exploration and puzzle play is probably my least favorite aspect of D&D.