D&D 5E Mitigating players spamming Help, Guidance, Bardic Inspiration, and oh I’ll roll too?

smbakeresq

Explorer
But, no 4th level pc ever has to fail at a job represented by an easy skill check. The GM can always choose to represent that die roll as a progress with setback.

I imagine that even you have had days or tasks where it didnt go as planned but you recovered and set it back right.

The rate of not getting the job done is always 100% in the hands of the GM on skill checks.

PHB under "Ability Checks"

"Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM."

Yes. The key is “no progress” so if there is no downside then just keep trying.

What’s funny at the table is groups will forget that they can keep trying a check unless then DM says they can’t, but will keep trying knowledge checks where it’s either you know something or you do not.

Even a lock that’s trapped can be tried again, you just disable the lock or set it off again better prepared.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
1) It's a first level spell that provides free advantage in combat. No action, no concentration, no save.
2) It ruins many other abilities that provide advantage as it is an easy continual source to get it.
3) It creates strangeness in character choices and invalidates others. Warlocks are better off taking Tome Pact and just getting the ritual of Find Familiar than Pact of the Chain. Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight subclasses come with a free advantage to an attack once per round, etc.
4) The familiar can't capital-A Attack, and yet it can attack.
5) Why is the enemy (continually) distracted by something that can't attack them? And why is this sort of 'distraction' enough for help? Surely there are many distracting things going on, on the battlefield at any given time. A giant could be fighting 5 PCs all at once and have no problems. Suddenly there is a frog and oh no my guard is down.
6) It changes the familiar from being a nice little creature that can help sometimes in scouting, sending a warning or other message, and such to a major contender in combat. It just feels wrong.
7) Why is the Hobgoblin not attacking the Familiar there? Clearly it is a huge threat which is easily disposed of. Hobgoblins esp. are combat tacticians. It is either distracting enough to be seen as a threat, or it isn't. And if it isn't, then it shouldn't be giving advantage.
This alone shows why it feels bad in play. The creature should be attacking it, but it isn't much fun to have your familiar die all the time, and isn't good cinematically either.
8) Follow up question - Do Gnolls Rampage when they kill the familiar? Why or why not?

I don't think this was the intent at all and it was just ruled this way because the final version of the Help action happened to be written this way. Some things were changed, like the 4 Elements Monk losing their bonus action ability and some were not like Agonizing Blast acting on every blast even though all other abilities like that don't. I think it was a mistake to not just issue errata in the spell or Help action to prevent it. True Strike along with the flavour cantrips are the most underpowered cantrips, but it shows just what the designers thought about giving out advantage.

When someone at the table had a familiar I told them before we started that I wouldn't be allowing any Help shenanigans. The whole table were shocked that was a thing and wouldn't have even thought to suggest it.
My take on these FWIW

Obviously default is that these are subjective to various degree depending on table preferences.

1 "Free" is actually costing with each casting. Also it doesnt grant free advantage in combat. It adds a crearure that might be able to do the help action. Thats different unless table practice decides different.

2 See #1

3 This conclusion on warlocks seems to ignore the chain boon that gives it access to the special familiars which frankly is baffling - that is huge difference for familiar play. If you are referencing the ritual book invoc with tome, consider the longer contact range invoc for chain as well. As for EK and AT, yes, again, see #1.

4 Help is not an attack, but this one i tend to agree with as a general problem with dnd 5e not tied to famiiar that attack is very poorly handled thru the rules. Hits every time you have things like Dragons breath and anything that limits attacks vs actions. Help in,combat can simply be distraction.

5 Things going on on the battlefield are different from things going on to you and coordinated to give one specific ally an opening.

6 Yes it gives the familiar a role in combat *if* the caster wants to risk it. These things are fragile and take an hour to resummon.

7 Honestly, this seems to be the root of all of the above. If the GM decides "familiars wont be attacked" then yep, its too goid for 1st level. That removes the balancing elements from the spell - 1 hr cast, 1 hp, low ac, gone at 0 hp, no death save sequence. See below for a different approach.

8 Familiar is a creature so any effect triggered by zero hp a creature works and the gnoll ability is defined that way. Not sure what the debate here would be.

Back to 7...

In my games its not uncommon fir the mage to keep the familiar out of combat, as much as they can. They know that if they interject it into combat, distracting for key attacks, intelligent enemies will attack it.

This makes them have to weigh "advantage on one attack" vs the 1 hour to recast it vs the value as scout etc for the rest of the time before they can recast.

One magic missile diverted to the familiar kills the standard ones whike still hitting others. Most any AoE kills one. One sorcery point twinning a firebolt likely kills one while still attacking someone else since familiar ac is low. One archer can likely plug it.

This makes inserting it into combat a very risky proposition.

If you as a player dont think its fun to have it killed often, dont send it into combat to be "a major contender", right? You dismiss it when or right before combat and it doesnt get killed. You send it in to become a factor, you got no room to claim no-fun when it gets killed over it (if against savvy opponents)

Unless your gm provides familiar immunity or de facto instant short rest long periods the combat use of the familiar is not anything like free advantage round after round - far from it.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Remember to the familiar has its own initiative which might not match up with what the owner intends to do in combat.

My players mostly use the familiar for scouting, guarding and spying. In most fantasy taverns a dog lying around would attract attention but the wizard upstairs can see through its senses.
 

What rules contradict each other? Got an example?

Yes, merely take a closer look. This is what you posted earlier:

A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help./QUOTE]

The first part says you can only provide help if you can attempt this alone.
The second part says only when additional help is productive.

Looking back to my original example, a cleric holding a torch while a rogue picks a lock (clearly a two-handed job) definitely falls under part two. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that holding a torch to provide added, and needed, illumination is counterproductive to opening a lock?

No rule is immutable. As a DM, it is our job to know when to reform them. It's not like you're attempting to change the laws of physics here, rather merely adjudicating a poorly thought out, yet still unretouched rule.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Yes, merely take a closer look. This is what you posted earlier:

A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help./QUOTE]

The first part says you can only provide help if you can attempt this alone.
The second part says only when additional help is productive.

Looking back to my original example, a cleric holding a torch while a rogue picks a lock (clearly a two-handed job) definitely falls under part two. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that holding a torch to provide added, and needed, illumination is counterproductive to opening a lock?

No rule is immutable. As a DM, it is our job to know when to reform them. It's not like you're attempting to change the laws of physics here, rather merely adjudicating a poorly thought out, yet still unretouched rule.

The worst thing a DM or player might do is slavish adherence to the rules. There shouldn’t be long rules debates at the table, you need to move on killing fantastic creatures in a heroic battle and then getting screwed over by some trap on a treasure chest.
 

Reynard

Legend
Looking back to my original example, a cleric holding a torch while a rogue picks a lock (clearly a two-handed job) definitely falls under part two. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that holding a torch to provide added, and needed, illumination is counterproductive to opening a lock?

No rule is immutable. As a DM, it is our job to know when to reform them. It's not like you're attempting to change the laws of physics here, rather merely adjudicating a poorly thought out, yet still unretouched rule.

I think you are misreading it. It says "moreover" as in "additionally." It means that not only must the helper be able to perform the action, but it must be a thing where more than one person working at it would be helpful. Now, of course, it is up the GM to decide whether two heads are better than one picking a lock. I would rule no because it's a manual, fine manipulation skill based as much on tactile feedback as anything else.

As to the holding the torch bit: if the lock picker can't see in the dark, I would totally allow a cleric holding a torch f he r them to negate the inherent disadvantage of trying to pick a lock blind.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Yes, merely take a closer look. This is what you posted earlier:


The first part says you can only provide help if you can attempt this alone.
The second part says only when additional help is productive.

Looking back to my original example, a cleric holding a torch while a rogue picks a lock (clearly a two-handed job) definitely falls under part two. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that holding a torch to provide added, and needed, illumination is counterproductive to opening a lock?

No rule is immutable. As a DM, it is our job to know when to reform them. It's not like you're attempting to change the laws of physics here, rather merely adjudicating a poorly thought out, yet still unretouched rule.

Needing to meet more than 1 condition is not a contradiction.
 
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Yes, merely take a closer look. This is what you posted earlier:

A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help.

The first part says you can only provide help if you can attempt this alone.
The second part says only when additional help is productive.

Looking back to my original example, a cleric holding a torch while a rogue picks a lock (clearly a two-handed job) definitely falls under part two. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that holding a torch to provide added, and needed, illumination is counterproductive to opening a lock?
Nah, those parts aren't in contradiction to each other, they are two requirements for the help action that both need to apply. You need to be able to do it alone AND additional help needs to be productive. Note that the second sentence starts with "Moreover", implying that it is an additional requirement rather than an alternative.

It might not realistically male sense that a cleric holding a torch only works if the cleric also is proficient with Thieves' Tools, but as per rules that's the requirement.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Nah, those parts aren't in contradiction to each other, they are two requirements for the help action that both need to apply. You need to be able to do it alone AND additional help needs to be productive. Note that the second sentence starts with "Moreover", implying that it is an additional requirement rather than an alternative.

It might not realistically male sense that a cleric holding a torch only works if the cleric also is proficient with Thieves' Tools, but as per rules that's the requirement.

The part that is not 'realistic' to me is the torch giving advantage.

Characters can't help with lockpicking because 2 people can't do it at once.

A torch will only provide advantage if being in bright light is enough to gain advantage. I can see it preventing disadvantage if it is ruled that darkness or dim light would provide that.
 

Yeah, I actually agree to that.

If it prevents disadvantage it's not by the Help Action rule, but due to DM determining advantage/disadvantage rules, though.
 

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