Nentir Vale Coming to Dungeons and Dragons

[Henry]

I didn't really start getting into D&D until the end of 4e's life cycle so I am not intimately familiar with the Nentir Vale setting but it has always been the setting that I found interesting, and I love the pantheon so much that I adopted it for my own game. One of the things that I did like about it is that the deities feel more like characters than abstract forces. They play active roles in their mythology and they behave in ways that show their flaws. So from that perspective, humanizing them further by giving them mortal origins somewhat makes sense.

I think the deities included were part of what turned me off, because it reminded me of my early campaigns where I would grab this god from this setting, that god from that setting, make up a few new ones in between because my setting was so unique and original, and call it my own. This "homebrew" feel to it is perhaps where I got the "unoriginal and uninspiring" vibe that the setting gave me at the time. That, plus the total cosmic restructuring that stuck demons in the same places as the elementals and little things like introducing Dragonborn and Tieflings as core races and making them prime movers in the setting, and conflating erinyes and succubi, were all things that went contrary to all that had come before it that annoyed me at the time.

Truth be told, looking back on it now and separating it mentally from all the edition warring that was going on back at the time, it's not a bad setting, and could stand to be fleshed out a bit more. I think its intentional lack of detail has worked against it for my liking, whereas compared to a Krynn, Eberron, Faerun, Oerth, Athas, Golarion, Taldor'ei, etc. their distinctness comes in their features and lore. Athas is another example of a world focused on only one small area in a world of near-oblivion, but the flavor in that small area is extremely detailed and uniform; if Nentir Vale had that level of distinctness for what cultures and events go on in its borders, I think it would have piqued my interest more back when it was released.

 

[Parmandur]

I would also argue that this made the Nentir Vale excellent for newcomers to D&D. The Greyhawk pantheon, for example, can be Byzantine for someone new to the setting. There is a reason why the 3e PHB presented a more concise list instead of redundant sun gods. It seemed fairly clear that 4e sought to follow the 3e PHB in this vein of approach.

That criticism is definitely valid. IME Greyhawk's multi-ethnic pantheons were part of its desire to develop a sense of pseudo-realistic history, such as its waves of human migrations into the Flanaess. (I also think that Gygax enjoyed a bit of whimsical incoherence.) I don't think, however, that NV necessarily desires to evoke that sort of pseudo-realism by creating multiple cultural pantheons. Instead, Nentir Vale seemed to prefer taking a more intersectional approach that drew on the Chaoskampf motif from multiple cultural pantheons to create a singular mythic pantheon for its setting. The setting placed greater emphasis on the mythic over the historic. It's not interested in telling you that this region's populace represents a mix of 1/2 native Flan with 1/4 Oeridians and 1/4 Sueloise. It wants to tell you which divine entity or primordial died during the Dawn War on that spot (and is buried there) and why that region is weird.

See, I got into Greyhawk through starting to play with the 3E PHB: the mess actually fits better with mythology. The Greeks had like 10 gods of the Sun, and the Egyptians had even more. The NV felt a little too pat and concise, too much of a gem construct than a mythological one.

 

[Azzy]

See, I got into Greyhawk through starting to play with the 3E PHB: the mess actually fits better with mythology. The Greeks had like 10 gods of the Sun, and the Egyptians had even more. The NV felt a little too pat and concise, too much of a gem construct than a mythological one.

In perspective, in a setting where the gods are objectively real (as is the case in most D&D settings), there should be a universal pantheon that has little to no overlap. A way to play with that, though, is to have each culture and language have their own names for the gods, and to not have every culture venerage every god in the pantheon (choosing only those that seem culturally important).

 

[Parmandur]

In perspective, in a setting where the gods are objectively real (as is the case in most D&D settings), there should be a universal pantheon that has little to no overlap. A way to play with that, though, is to have each culture and language have their own names for the gods, and to not have every culture venerage every god in the pantheon (choosing only those that seem culturally important).

On the contrary, the best treatment of gods in RPGing is Greg Stafford's real-but-not-so-objective Runequest wackiness. Enlightenment-style clean, logical lines are less fun for me as a mythology buff.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think its intentional lack of detail has worked against it for my liking, whereas compared to a Krynn, Eberron, Faerun, Oerth, Athas, Golarion, Taldor'ei, etc. their distinctness comes in their features and lore. Athas is another example of a world focused on only one small area in a world of near-oblivion, but the flavor in that small area is extremely detailed and uniform; if Nentir Vale had that level of distinctness for what cultures and events go on in its borders, I think it would have piqued my interest more back when it was released.

This is a personal preference thing. To you (and many others), the setting felt lacking in terms of specific detail, whereas to a lot of the setting’s fans it’s a key selling point. Personally, I prefer that From Software approach to lore, where everything is implied rather than directly stated, and there’s lots of room for speculation. It’s definitely not for everyone though.

 

[Charlaquin]

On the contrary, the best treatment of gods in RPGing is Greg Stafford's real-but-not-so-objective Runequest wackiness. Enlightenment-style clean, logical lines are less fun for me as a mythology buff.

Yeah, I’m with you on that. Sure, if the gods are objectively real, it makes sense for there to be pretty clean lines between them, with minor differences in dogma. But then why would you want objectively real gods? it’s much more fun, in my opinion, if there’s some mystery to it. If the supernatural is not so well-understood, and people disagree on what can or cannot be attributed to divine influence, what is or is not a god, what brings, entities, or forces are worthy of veneration, and what those practices should look like.

That’s why two of the guiding principles of my homebrew are “Mythology, not history” and “The world is magical, but magic is mysterious.”

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I’m with you on that. Sure, if the gods are objectively real, it makes sense for there to be pretty clean lines between them, with minor differences in dogma. But then why would you want objectively real gods? it’s much more fun, in my opinion, if there’s some mystery to it. If the supernatural is not so well-understood, and people disagree on what can or cannot be attributed to divine influence, what is or is not a god, what brings, entities, or forces are worthy of veneration, and what those practices should look like.

That’s why two of the guiding principles of my homebrew are “Mythology, not history” and “The world is magical, but magic is mysterious.”

I do like the pantheon in outline, and that Moradin et al are worshipped in different guides, but they didn't quite bring the mythological flavor over the goal line. It feels like it could be great, with some more flavor and contradictory ideas added in. Which, coincidentally, the Tal'Dorei campaign guide does, for this pantheon, with the serial numbers filed off but cool mythological resonance and theological ambiguity added in.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

To a certain extent, I also think this is the pantheon of gods that PC's are likely to interact with (at least indirectly). Is there an orc god(dess) of agriculture? Orcs got to eat too, so there is probably one someplace (maybe an unnamed Exarch of Gruumish), but outside of orcs and aficionados of agricultural deities (or Trivial Pursuit), most people couldn't tell you his/her name. Even learned wizards would probably have to look it up.

Now if there was suddenly an influx of EVIL agriculture, that could change.....

 

[Aldarc]

See, I got into Greyhawk through starting to play with the 3E PHB: the mess actually fits better with mythology. The Greeks had like 10 gods of the Sun, and the Egyptians had even more. The NV felt a little too pat and concise, too much of a gem construct than a mythological one.

Greyhawk's mess of a mythology fits better from a sociological or history of religions perspective - likely yours as a "mythology buff" - but not necessarily from a literary perspective where this Chaoskampf mythology represents an objective reality. The Dawn War is a real thing in this world. That would kill, reorganize, and compress a lot of pantheons. However - and I say this as someone focusing my current career on mythological perspectives - the NV and its Dawn War feels far more mythological than Greyhawk.

On the contrary, the best treatment of gods in RPGing is Greg Stafford's real-but-not-so-objective Runequest wackiness. Enlightenment-style clean, logical lines are less fun for me as a mythology buff.

That's the thing though. If I wanted that sort of mythological realism, I would play RuneQuest rather than Greyhawk (or any other D&D setting).

I do like the pantheon in outline, and that Moradin et al are worshipped in different guides, but they didn't quite bring the mythological flavor over the goal line. It feels like it could be great, with some more flavor and contradictory ideas added in. Which, coincidentally, the Tal'Dorei campaign guide does, for this pantheon, with the serial numbers filed off but cool mythological resonance and theological ambiguity added in.

Tal'Dorei got a sourcebook. Nentir Vale and the Dawn War is still waiting for one. Nothing has been officially consolidated and published yet.

 

[Parmandur]

Greyhawk's mess of a mythology fits better from a sociological or history of religions perspective - likely yours as a "mythology buff" - but not necessarily from a literary perspective where this Chaoskampf mythology represents an objective reality. The Dawn War is a real thing in this world. That would kill, reorganize, and compress a lot of pantheons. However - and I say this as someone focusing my current career on mythological perspectives - the NV and its Dawn War feels far more mythological than Greyhawk.

That's the thing though. If I wanted that sort of mythological realism, I would play RuneQuest rather than Greyhawk (or any other D&D setting).

Tal'Dorei got a sourcebook. Nentir Vale and the Dawn War is still waiting for one. Nothing has been officially consolidated and published yet.

Tal'Dorei has the Dawn War, and all of the gods thereof, presented in a very attractive package.