Nentir Vale Coming to Dungeons and Dragons

[doctorbadwolf]

To a certain extent, I also think this is the pantheon of gods that PC's are likely to interact with (at least indirectly). Is there an orc god(dess) of agriculture? Orcs got to eat too, so there is probably one someplace (maybe an unnamed Exarch of Gruumish), but outside of orcs and aficionados of agricultural deities (or Trivial Pursuit), most people couldn't tell you his/her name. Even learned wizards would probably have to look it up.

Now if there was suddenly an influx of EVIL agriculture, that could change.....

Exactly. For every god in PoLand, there are a hundred exarchs and contradictory interpretations.

Nah. Tal'Dorei bores the Mumm-Ra Everliving Crap out of me. Nentir Vale felt more like a toolkit for GMs, which is why I wanted it published. Look, Parmandur, nothing is stopping you from ignoring the 4e Nentir Vale and Mike Mearls's Nentir Vale for Tal'Dorei and its oh so highly complex pantheon of the 4e PHB + 1 Extra Sun God from Golarion and never look back. But I prefer Nentir Vale.

I love CR, but I agree on Tal'Dorei (Exandria, technically). Matt is a great DM, and I enjoy the street level world building in the second campaign, and a lot of how he uses stuff in both campaigns, but his mythology is...fine? I like the idea of the Divine Gate, and the Divergence, and all that, but it's hardly on the same level as the fully fleshed out 4e mythology.

...see that Nentir Vale had some flavor, some hooks, and actual myth.

And more than "some". Incredible amounts of it. Every new article and book added more, every Paragon Path or Epic Destiny added to the mythos of the world. Every Winning Races and Ecology of article gave us greater insights into gnoll religion and Elven Exarchs of basket weaving based revenge plots. A set of books compiling and organizing all of the lore of the 4e PoL world would be massive, fascinating, mythological, intricate, and amazing.

No 4ate here, maybe some 4Endifference: I actually like the outline, but it never really got fleshed out and was a bit flat as presented. Mearls take is, indeed, pretty fun. Mercer's is better, but he took the time to flesh it out for publication.

I mean, maybe if you just read the PHB...

 

[Parmandur]

I think that this speaks to your preference to have things spelled out for you. You want an explicit setting, not that you would be short of those in how most published settings are presented. I liked having Nentir Vale as an implied setting that was GM-empowering. It wasn't flat. It invited you to explore its contours. Mercer may have a Dawn War and the planes, but it falls flat for me. It doesn't have the same mythic flare. I read through the Tal'Dorei Sourcebook and thought nothing but "meh."

Well, I do prefer to read things that have character and flavor put into them, yes. Stuff like "in-universe" narration, or stories. If it's something that expects me to build it entirely...why do I need the book if it isn't going to provide some bricks?

 

[Parmandur]

I mean, maybe if you just read the PHB...

Never did get past the PHB, no. Wasn't very inspired to at the time.

With this sort of thing, first impressions can make or break it. It also seems it never got consolidated into a concise form, any sort of Gazeeter or such. Too bad.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Appart from the pantheon, what makes Taldorei the same as NV? I mean, the whole point of NV is the concept of ''Point of Lights''. Taldorei as a bunch of larges cities that dot a rather small map, a new but steady republic system where every major race cooperate for the betterment of the continent and has other large, mapped and inhabited continents.

The thing I love about Taldorei is that its one of the few setting where things are going pretty well overall. Its not like its a dead/dying world, or a world ravaged by constant cataclysm; all societies are somewhat prosperous in the after war effort. Nentir Vale as something like 4 cities that are mostly remnant of a ancient society, races are distrustful and people are afraid to leave the few small towns. It reminds me of Eriador at the start of LotR.

 

[Parmandur]

Appart from the pantheon, what makes Taldorei the same as NV? I mean, the whole point of NV is the concept of ''Point of Lights''. Taldorei as a bunch of larges cities that dot a rather small map, a new but steady republic system where every major race cooperate for the betterment of the continent and has other large, mapped and inhabited continents.

The thing I love about Taldorei is that its one of the few setting where things are going pretty well overall. Its not like its a dead/dying world, or a world ravaged by constant cataclysm; all societies are somewhat prosperous in the after war effort. Nentir Vale as something like 4 cities that are mostly remnant of a ancient society, races are distrustful and people are afraid to leave the few small towns. It reminds me of Eriador at the start of LotR.

Tal'Dorei is a pretty wooly and wild continent (much of what you describe is post-Vox Machina), andwas built point by point using the PoL model. It is a case in point for how that sort of campaign is designed: Mercer didn't even like 4E, but he used the setting and campaign advise in Pathfinder/5E. It speaks to the strength of that approach.

 

[Imaro]

And more than "some". Incredible amounts of it. Every new article and book added more, every Paragon Path or Epic Destiny added to the mythos of the world. Every Winning Races and Ecology of article gave us greater insights into gnoll religion and Elven Exarchs of basket weaving based revenge plots. A set of books compiling and organizing all of the lore of the 4e PoL world would be massive, fascinating, mythological, intricate, and amazing.

See this is what's confusing for me... when you speak to things like Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies and the PHB... Aren't these the same ones for Forgotten Realms? And for Dark Sun? And for Eberron? So is that specifically Nentir Vale lore or generic lore for all campaign settings that used the PHB?

EDIT: I don';t dislike the Nentir Vale or 4e's cosmology but honestly after having played Exalted for years it didn't feel all that original but instead very reminiscent of that game's cosmology... not a bad thing because I've used it and probably would again to run a game in... just found the Great Wheel more original and interesting.

 

[Parmandur]

See this is what's confusing for me... when you speak to things like Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies and the PHB... Aren't these the same ones for Forgotten Realms? And for Dark Sun? And for Eberron? So is that specifically Nentir Vale lore or generic lore for all campaign settings that used the PHB?

My understanding is that the generic stuff was by default sort of set in the Nentir Vale, so any given thing not specifically set in one of the official settings was Nentir Vale.

But from my perusal of the books outside the PHB, while limited, they seemed pretty light on flavor or explanatory text...

 

[Aldarc]

I love CR, but I agree on Tal'Dorei (Exandria, technically). Matt is a great DM, and I enjoy the street level world building in the second campaign, and a lot of how he uses stuff in both campaigns, but his mythology is...fine? I like the idea of the Divine Gate, and the Divergence, and all that, but it's hardly on the same level as the fully fleshed out 4e mythology.

Spurred by this conversation, I revisited the Tal'Dorei Campaign Book. There is scarcely a Dawn War. The divine/primordial conflict a furtive murmur in the book. It's hardly as mythic as I was led to believe. But fleshing out a mythos in an adventure is far different than its marginal presence in a published setting book. Who are the dead gods of Exandria? These dead gods (e.g., Gorelik, Io, Lakal, etc.) get mentioned quite often. Nentir Vale has RuneQuest-like cults attempting to reassemble their fallen deities. Nentir Vale's Dawn War became a clusterfrak war between various factions: gods, primordials, primal spirits, demons, devils, etc. Exandria? It seems to follow neat stages. And the villain deities just get lumped together as the "Betrayer Gods" rather than the complexity of evil deities fighting for the side of the Astral Sea against the Primordials and Demons.

And more than "some". Incredible amounts of it. Every new article and book added more, every Paragon Path or Epic Destiny added to the mythos of the world. Every Winning Races and Ecology of article gave us greater insights into gnoll religion and Elven Exarchs of basket weaving based revenge plots. A set of books compiling and organizing all of the lore of the 4e PoL world would be massive, fascinating, mythological, intricate, and amazing.

Most definitely. There was never any doubt how monsters or players could fit into the setting. It oozed with plothooks and insights for the world.

Never did get past the PHB, no. Wasn't very inspired to at the time.

With this sort of thing, first impressions can make or break it. It also seems it never got consolidated into a concise form, any sort of Gazeeter or such. Too bad.

That explains a lot.

See this is what's confusing for me... when you speak to things like Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies and the PHB... Aren't these the same ones for Forgotten Realms? And for Dark Sun? And for Eberron? So is that specifically Nentir Vale lore or generic lore for all campaign settings that used the PHB?

Depends. Some books provided FR, DS, and Eb-specific paragon paths and epic destinies. And also keep in mind that the implied setting lore did "infect" a lot of the other D&D settings. Others worked towards contributing to the overarching lore of the implied setting of Nentir Vale. The Raven Herald paragon path, for example, was meant for the Raven Queen, who was absent in Eberron and Dark Sun. (Don't know if she was forcibly inserted into FR or not.)

 

[SkidAce]

In perspective, in a setting where the gods are objectively real (as is the case in most D&D settings), there should be a universal pantheon that has little to no overlap. A way to play with that, though, is to have each culture and language have their own names for the gods, and to not have every culture venerage every god in the pantheon (choosing only those that seem culturally important).

Or, gods are "little" gods, and come from and hang around their followers.

Thus, everywhere there is a culture, there is a pantheon, or mishmash of pantheons.

I have hundreds of gods, but they are all in different places or worlds.

Only about five or six are universal as you would see it.

 

[SkidAce]

I think that this speaks to your preference to have things spelled out for you. You want an explicit setting, not that you would be short of those in how most published settings are presented. I liked having Nentir Vale as an implied setting that was GM-empowering. It wasn't flat. It invited you to explore its contours. Mercer may have a Dawn War and the planes, but it falls flat for me. It doesn't have the same mythic flare. I read through the Tal'Dorei Sourcebook and thought nothing but "meh."

I read Tal'Dorei and loved it. Great job on Mercer's part.

But, I'm not going to use that pantheon for my world. Just doesn't fit.