Do We Really Need Half-Elves and Half-Orcs?

[CrimsonCarcharodon]

Do you have the same problems with humans?

Yes. Humans are also boring and feel very generic.

Just because you desire more choice of subraces doesn't mean WotC should make every race have that option. 5e has always mixed complex options with less complex options.

The neat thing is you as a player are free to choose the option that interests you the most, unless the DM has limited those options from the game.

Just because you desire simplicity doesn't mean WotC should make races simple without the option of subraces.

Soooo .... how about kender?

Halfling subrace for Dragonlance. Doesn't bother me any.

I'm all for half-elves and half-orcs, I simply wish they were human with variant features as opposed to entirely new races unto themselves.

If half-races need to have mechanical representation, yeah. That'd be a good way to do it.

You could blend the current PHB Half-Elf and Half-Orc with the Human Variant. Maybe something like:

Half-Elf (Human subrace)
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity or Charisma score increases by 1, and one other ability score of your choice increases by 1.
Age. (as PHB Half-Elf)
Alignment. (as PHB Half-Elf)
Size. (as PHB Half-Elf)
Speed. (as PHB Half-Elf)
Darkvision OR Fey Ancestry (replaces Human Variant Feat)
Skills. You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Languages. (as PHB Half-Elf)

Half-Orc (Human subrace)
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength or Constitution score increases by 1, and one other ability score of your choice increases by 1.
Age. (as PHB Half-Orc)
Alignment. (as PHB Half-Orc)
Size. (as PHB Half-Orc)
Speed. (as PHB Half-Orc)
Darkvision OR Savage Attacks (replaces Human Variant Feat)
Menacing. (as PHB Half-Orc)
Relentless Endurance. (as PHB Half-Orc)
Languages. (as PHB Half-Orc)

Keeping Relentless Endurance is because the player does not get to choose a skill, they must accept the Intimidation skill (from Menacing).

I would start with something like those and tweak them as desired.

I kinda like these. I could see using these in a game.

 

[Charlaquin]

Having half elves and half orcs be variants of humans seems to be a common theme. How would people go about creating them? I'd probably base it off the variant human but with set abilities instead of a specific feat/skill. Ability increases I'd probably still keep as variable rather than setting them to str/con for half orc and cha/? for half elf.

Half-elf is already really close to Variant Human. You could make the human base stats +1 to two different ability scores and a skill, with a “pureblood” subrace that adds a feat, and a a half-elf subrace that adds +2 Cha, darkvision, fey ancestry, two skills, and elvish as a bonus language. That feels like the half-elf subrace is way stronger, but it’s functionally the same as the current choice between variant human or half-elf. For half-orcs, I’d still make that a subrace of orc. Like I mentioned earlier, give the base race +2 strength, +1 constitution, and menacing, with a pureblood subrace granting -2 Intelligence, Aggressive, and Strong Build, and a half-human subrace that grants Savage Attacks and Relentless Endurance.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I kinda like these. I could see using these in a game.

Thanks. I never realized how good Half-Elves were compared to Humans until I did this (we've only started 5E about a month ago). In a side-by-side comparison, why would anyone choose Human over Half-Elf???

Human Variant = increase two ability scores by 1
Human Variant = gain proficiency in one skill
Human Variant = gain one feat

Half-Elf = as Human, PLUS add 2 to Charisma
Half-Elf = as Human, PLUS another skill proficiency
Half-Elf = gain Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, and a Language

So, is one feat worth Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, and a Language? Depends on your opinion I supposed, but I don't think so. Oh, and of course, Half-Elves live much longer.

A similar argument could be made about how over-powered Half-Orc are in comparison. RAW, it simply comes down to if you don't use and role-play the social aspect of being a Half-Elf or Half-Orc, I don't see many people picking humans over the two other races.

 

[Dausuul]

In a side-by-side comparison, why would anyone choose Human over Half-Elf???

Human Variant = increase two ability scores by 1
Human Variant = gain proficiency in one skill
Human Variant = gain one feat

Half-Elf = as Human, PLUS add 2 to Charisma
Half-Elf = as Human, PLUS another skill proficiency
Half-Elf = gain Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, and a Language

So, is one feat worth Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, and a Language? Depends on your opinion I supposed, but I don't think so. Oh, and of course, Half-Elves live much longer.

Darkvision is the only one of those abilities that comes into play often enough to care about. And while darkvision is a nifty ability, it does not compare to the power of a well-chosen feat. (Don't forget that you still suffer disadvantage/-5 to Perception in total darkness; and if there's even one PC in the party who doesn't have darkvision, you'll be carrying around a light source anyway.)

The real power of half-elf is that it gets +2 to Charisma and two floating +1s. If you're playing a Charisma-primary class (warlock, sorcerer, or bard), half-elf is the race to beat. If you're playing a Charisma-secondary class (paladin, some flavors of rogue), it's a strong contender, about on par with variant human. If you're playing a class that doesn't use Charisma, variant human is much better.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Just because you desire simplicity doesn't mean WotC should make races simple without the option of subraces.

I never said I desire simplicity. I said some people desire it. I don't really play Champions for instance, but I have a player in my party that that's the only thing she can play. Tracking resources just isn't her forte. Hence while I don't prefer that simple option I will defend the Champion and options like it that offer players who prefer a different playstyle what they desire. Especially since I already have what I desire in other options anyway.

I do think targeting both audiences was a smart business move by WotC.

 

[Yunru]

Make all Half- races genuinely half a race. So you pick two halves.

 

[MNblockhead]

WARNING ! SKYRIM SPOILER

Yes. A setting is a collection of ideas to provide a specific narrative feel and tone. Dark Sun feels very different from Forgotten Realms for exactly this reason. For the choice of races, magic, items, rarity of resources all set this tone.

Dragging a race into such a setting "just 'cause" is disrupting to the tone and narrative.

The lack of Dwemer (dwarves) in the Elder Scrolls is a perfect example of how a race missing creates an interesting narrative feel.

Then again, the Snow Elves are also gone (well have been twisted into the Falmer), except that in what quest you do find the last remaining Snow Elves, hidden away. It is one of the more narratively interesting quests in Skyrim.

Perhaps a gnome was long ago turned to stone or put into some magic stasis.

As for settings where the race NEVER exisited, well, perhaps the character put a bag of holding inside a handy haversack and bumbled his way into a portal to this world.

If that is not the game you want to play as DM, well then don't. But if you want to run a setting that doesn't have a certain race that the player wants to play, there are ways to do it that don't have to disrupt the tone and narrative.

 

[WaterRabbit]

So what race would disrupt what kind of tone? I’m unfamiliar with Elder Scrolls and the absence of dwemer/dwarves.

I fully get how laser guns and power armor would disrupt a D&D type setting (Barrier Peaks aside). But races seem far less disruptive. I mean, take elements from sci-fi and put them into fantasy, and you’ve changed the tone, if not the entire genre. But take a race from a sci-fi story and drop it into fantasy....let’s say Wookies or Klingons....they pretty much fit right in.

I really don't see how adding Wookies and Klingons to a Gothic horror game like Curse of Strahd works at all and still maintains the tone and themes of the setting. To me that is just as jarring as having machine guns in a D&D setting that is fantasy medieval/renaissance like Forgotten Realms.

However, even without such jarring choices, you can see that certain races can be a poor fit for general adventuring. It is why you don't see any Large races and the two semi-large races they attempt to shoehorn into a medium frame (centaurs [UA] and goliaths, for example).

To look at Dark Sun, a centaur race would be a poor fit (human/horse hybrid). Could one be shoehorned in? Maybe, but it would still be out of place. A human/scorpion hybrid would be a better fit as it doesn't require the setting to also import other creatures to support it.

Would gnomes work? Maybe, but they would require the same extensive rework of culture that halfling received to fit into the setting. Maybe that isn't something a DM wants to take on top of all of the other parts to consider?

I suppose it can all be hand-waived away if all anyone cares about is rolling dice. However, I have played in a large number of RPG systems that are more character and story focused than D&D has been in the past.

To me certain groups of races also just don't work. For example, placing a Yuan-Ti into a party, if role-played well is going to be strange unless everyone else in the party is willing to be submissive (i.e., lackeys) to the Yuan-Ti character. The same really goes for Drow as well. Really how many outcast Drow characters are there really before it becomes cliche?

 

[WaterRabbit]

WARNING ! SKYRIM SPOILER



Then again, the Snow Elves are also gone (well have been twisted into the Falmer), except that in what quest you do find the last remaining Snow Elves, hidden away. It is one of the more narratively interesting quests in Skyrim.

Perhaps a gnome was long ago turned to stone or put into some magic stasis.

As for settings where the race NEVER exisited, well, perhaps the character put a bag of holding inside a handy haversack and bumbled his way into a portal to this world.

If that is not the game you want to play as DM, well then don't. But if you want to run a setting that doesn't have a certain race that the player wants to play, there are ways to do it that don't have to disrupt the tone and narrative.

Except that you have just disrupted the narrative with the bag of holding gag. Or the gnome or whatever. You are now creating a snowflake exception that doesn't respect the themes and tone of the setting.

Notice in the Skyrim story, Snow Elf still isn't a playable race. It is there to tell one specific and contained story. To have player character Snow Elves or Dwarves would dramatically and run contrary to the mystery and lore of the setting. If you ran a D&D game in TES, by your theory it would be fine to have Snow Elves and Dwarves running around as PCs. Why not then throw in Sloads or Klingons or whatever?

If that works for you group, great. But for the people I have generally played with that runs into narrative dissonance. People mod Skyrim so they have light sabers or Thomas the Train. I applaud them for their creativity. However, I will never use those mods in my game.

It all comes down to a matter of personal preference and taste -- which should be determined in a theoretical session 0. People joining after the session 0 should respect the decision made during that session or run their own game.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I really don't see how adding Wookies and Klingons to a Gothic horror game like Curse of Strahd works at all and still maintains the tone and themes of the setting. To me that is just as jarring as having machine guns in a D&D setting that is fantasy medieval/renaissance like Forgotten Realms.

However, even without such jarring choices, you can see that certain races can be a poor fit for general adventuring. It is why you don't see any Large races and the two semi-large races they attempt to shoehorn into a medium frame (centaurs [UA] and goliaths, for example).

To look at Dark Sun, a centaur race would be a poor fit (human/horse hybrid). Could one be shoehorned in? Maybe, but it would still be out of place. A human/scorpion hybrid would be a better fit as it doesn't require the setting to also import other creatures to support it.

Would gnomes work? Maybe, but they would require the same extensive rework of culture that halfling received to fit into the setting. Maybe that isn't something a DM wants to take on top of all of the other parts to consider?

I suppose it can all be hand-waived away if all anyone cares about is rolling dice. However, I have played in a large number of RPG systems that are more character and story focused than D&D has been in the past.

To me certain groups of races also just don't work. For example, placing a Yuan-Ti into a party, if role-played well is going to be strange unless everyone else in the party is willing to be submissive (i.e., lackeys) to the Yuan-Ti character. The same really goes for Drow as well. Really how many outcast Drow characters are there really before it becomes cliche?

Ravenloft is probably one of the best examples you can give. However, as presented, even in the 2E days, its nature left it open to all playable races and classes from just about any of the existing settings.

Sure, a fantasy version of the Wookie is not a great fit for the setting; but is a halfling or a dragonborn really much better? And do you think it's impossible for a player to somehow make the Wookie in Ravenloft work? It may be challenging, but impossible? I could see a fantasy Klingon fitting right in....trying and struggling to face all threats with martial prowess, and perhaps being tempted by the Dark Powers....

The Large creature aspect is one that they struggle with, but as you point out, they kind of shoe horn it in. I think this is more a mechanical concern than anything else. Half-Giants worked just fine in 2E Dark Sun. But then, I think the nature of the world lent itself to accommodate them.

Regarding gnomes, what you're saying may not be required at all. The gnome in question could be the results of mutation (an element that exists in the setting), or some kind of survivor of the Sorcerer Kings' genocide, or a planar traveler. A centaur could easily be reskinned so that it is a better fit, but be mechanically the same. There are options that can avoid any intense work on the part of the DM. I don't think I'm advocating for hand-waving in favor of rolling dice; it's more a case of a DM and player working together to make sure setting concept and character concept can work together.

As for cliche, you seem in favor of it in some ways, and not in others. If an outcast drow is cliche, then certainly the monolithically evil drow is as well. And so is the gruff dwarf and the serene elf and the stoic knight and the mysterious wizard. Sure, these things are archetypical, but they can still all be used to say something. I think this is where you're really moving into personal preference; you find X to be cliche, so it shouldn't be in a game.

Personally, I've found that when a player comes to me and says something kind of crazy like "I want to play a Yuan-Ti", it's an exercise in creativity to ask why would there by a Yuan-Ti adventurer? Is he different from his fellow Yuan-Ti? Does he share some goal with the rest of the party? These kinds of questions or the ones that I've found lead to truly memorable characters and games, and that's a large part of why I tend to not restrict players in their choices.