D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Zardnaar]

The claim that 5e wizards with at will cantrips, ritual spells, two spell slots, same to-hit progression as a fighter, and no roll to learn new spells suck compared to 1e magic users with one spell slot, no effective cantrips, no ritual spells, sucky hit progression, and a chance to not get to know a particular spell is a pretty unusual one.

Sleep was more powerful in 1E and throwing 3 darts in 1E for 1d3 damage is better than a d8 or d10 cantrip in 5E. Especially since 5E tends to double or triple monster HP. You also got a lot more wands, scrolls, staves etc in 1E which were in effect your cantrips.

In 2E a specialist gets 2 spells so something like an enchanter with 2 sleeps throwing darts is arguably better than the 5E wizard. 5E wizards have a d6 as well but relative to incoming damage from monsters the d4 AD&D wizard is better off than the 5E wizard.

Fireball even at low levels in AD&D (5d6) is also better than a 5E 8d6 fireball due to monster HP inflation.

Slinging cantrips also doesn't feel very magical vs casting something like Magic Missile at higher level in AD&D. Magic Missile is basically the waste of a spell in 5E. Direct damage was also better in older editions its a bit of a trap for wizards in 5E, let the martials do it or warlocks/sorcerers.

 

[Mort]

Let me start by saying, I think comparing the 5e wizard to past editions is not only tricky, it's misguided. The question is, are low level wizards effective in 5e.

That said:

Sleep was more powerful in 1E and throwing 3 darts in 1E for 1d3 damage is better than a d8 or d10 cantrip in 5E. Especially since 5E tends to double or triple monster HP. You also got a lot more wands, scrolls, staves etc in 1E which were in effect your cantrips.

It's been a while but from what I recall wizards didn't have a good to hit in 1e, in 5e their to hit with the cantrip is on par with any other class.

5e sleep is still a killer spell at low levels, easily taking down multiple weak opponents.

The second bit (more wands etc.) is/was very dependant on DM. I remember being rather wand and scroll starved as my DM didn't use published adventures.

In 2E a specialist gets 2 spells so something like an enchanter with 2 sleeps throwing darts is arguably better than the 5E wizard. 5E wizards have a d6 as well but relative to incoming damage from monsters the d4 AD&D wizard is better off than the 5E wizard.

But a 5e wizard is more flexible due to the casting no longer being pure Vancien. With a bit of system mastery this is a big deal. And the low level 5e wizard has more defensive options than the low level 2e wizard.

Fireball even at low levels in AD&D (5d6) is also better than a 5E 8d6 fireball due to monster HP inflation.

More true at higher levels, when the mage gains other options. But even with that, I think it's a feature not a bug. The wizard shouldn't be "stand back and let me handle this..." It's a team effort.

Slinging cantrips also doesn't feel very magical vs casting something like Magic Missile at higher level in AD&D. Magic Missile is basically the waste of a spell in 5E. Direct damage was also better in older editions its a bit of a trap for wizards in 5E, let the martials do it or warlocks/sorcerers.

The cantrip not "feeling" magical is pure opinion, I happen to disagree, but it's not worth a back and forth (hence opinion).

Magic missile being useless? I just don't see it. Magic missile is automatic consistent (if low) damage with a damage type (force) that very few creatures have resistance to. That means it's a great finishing off spell, even into high levels. If you know a creature is about to drop (and if it doesn't, it's lack of HP is irrelevant to how hard it hits!) magic missile is likely the safest bet to drop it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Let me start by saying, I think comparing the 5e wizard to past editions is not only tricky, it's misguided. The question is, are low level wizards effective in 5e.

That said:



It's been a while but from what I recall wizards didn't have a good to hit in 1e, in 5e their to hit with the cantrip is on par with any other class.

5e sleep is still a killer spell at low levels, easily taking down multiple weak opponents.

The second bit (more wands etc.) is/was very dependant on DM. I remember being rather wand and scroll starved as my DM didn't use published adventures.



But a 5e wizard is more flexible due to the casting no longer being pure Vancien. With a bit of system mastery this is a big deal. And the low level 5e wizard has more defensive options than the low level 2e wizard.



More true at higher levels, when the mage gains other options. But even with that, I think it's a feature not a bug. The wizard shouldn't be "stand back and let me handle this..." It's a team effort.



The cantrip not "feeling" magical is pure opinion, I happen to disagree, but it's not worth a back and forth (hence opinion).

Magic missile being useless? I just don't see it. Magic missile is automatic consistent (if low) damage with a damage type (force) that very few creatures have resistance to. That means it's a great finishing off spell, even into high levels. If you know a creature is about to drop (and if it doesn't, it's lack of HP is irrelevant to how hard it hits!) magic missile is likely the safest bet to drop it.

MM sucking is because cantrips outscale it and direct damage doesn't auto scale despite direct damage not being broken since 1E/BECMI (it was good in 2E, meh in 3.x and 5E with a few exceptions).

Unless you know something is on 7.5 hp or less MM is also a crap shoot. I don't actually recall any spellcaster ever in 5E casting it except a PC who had it via wand where it looked good vs a cantrip due to charges.

 

[Zardnaar]

Let me start by saying, I think comparing the 5e wizard to past editions is not only tricky, it's misguided. The question is, are low level wizards effective in 5e.

That said:



It's been a while but from what I recall wizards didn't have a good to hit in 1e, in 5e their to hit with the cantrip is on par with any other class.

5e sleep is still a killer spell at low levels, easily taking down multiple weak opponents.

The second bit (more wands etc.) is/was very dependant on DM. I remember being rather wand and scroll starved as my DM didn't use published adventures.



But a 5e wizard is more flexible due to the casting no longer being pure Vancien. With a bit of system mastery this is a big deal. And the low level 5e wizard has more defensive options than the low level 2e wizard.



More true at higher levels, when the mage gains other options. But even with that, I think it's a feature not a bug. The wizard shouldn't be "stand back and let me handle this..." It's a team effort.



The cantrip not "feeling" magical is pure opinion, I happen to disagree, but it's not worth a back and forth (hence opinion).

Magic missile being useless? I just don't see it. Magic missile is automatic consistent (if low) damage with a damage type (force) that very few creatures have resistance to. That means it's a great finishing off spell, even into high levels. If you know a creature is about to drop (and if it doesn't, it's lack of HP is irrelevant to how hard it hits!) magic missile is likely the safest bet to drop it.

At low levels wizard THAC0 was fine if not identical to the martials at level 1 (in 2E IIRC).

5E main thing is you spend less time at level 1 and have more generous healing, as I said its debatable if a 5E lvl 1 wizard is actually any better off than a AD&D one. Sure you might only have 1 sleep spell but when you come across 20 Kobolds an average roll will take out 18 of them. 5E you might get 4.

Wizards also get more competition IMHO from buffed up 5E Lore Bards, Sorcerers, and some of the clerics which I think are competitive or out right better at certain low levels (light cleric for example). The 1 thing they were good at (AoE damage, AoE effects in general) is no longer exclusive to them

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

Has there ever been an edition of D&D where the wizard did NOT suck, at least until level "fireball"?

I've played all editions since AD&D, liked them all - except 4e (in which the only good stuff -IMO- was the higher starting hitpoints, especially for wizards).

But come on, in all previous editions the wizard did not have many more spells in the lower levels, and the cantrips were mostly useless.
In 5e wizards have really good cantrips for utility and some decent damage, cantrip damage scaling with level.
5e spell memorization rules have improved IMO, plus some nice school abilities.

In all editions the wizard started to shine from about level 7 on, then became insanely powerful above 13, latest 15.
I'd say 5e rather limited the wizard's high level power with lesser high level spell slots (and concentration in general).

 

[Azzy]

Considering that 9th (name) level was high-level in AD&D, calling a magic-user with fireball (5th-level at least) low-level is a bit weird.

 

[Maxperson]

At low levels wizard THAC0 was fine if not identical to the martials at level 1 (in 2E IIRC).

Further, dex was important to to wizards to help them stay alive, so it wasn't unusual to have an attack adjustment with missile weapons as a wizard.

 

[Azzy]

Further, dex was important to to wizards to help them stay alive, so it wasn't unusual to have an attack adjustment with missile weapons as a wizard.

If you rolled really well for Dex—the bonus to ranged attacks didn't start until a Dex 16.

 

[Maxperson]

Considering that 9th (name) level was high-level in AD&D, calling a magic-user with fireball (5th-level at least) low-level is a bit weird.

I don't think it's weird. Low-mid-high are the level categories. First to third, fourth to sixth, and seventh to ninth are the spell divisions. Everyone I played with back in the day considered third level to be the highest of the low level spells. Also, if you look at the title names, it wasn't until 9th-11th level that you got your last name level title. Magic users got theirs at 11th level.

 

[Maxperson]

If you rolled really well for Dex—the bonus to ranged attacks didn't start until a Dex 16.

Yep. A lot of elven wizards, though, so you only needed to roll a 15. It didn't happen every time, but it wasn't unusual to see it.