D&D 5E Old Vexed Question: All too Important Dexterity Stat and Finesse Weapons, namely the Rapier

[ccs]

If by "Always" you mean "since 3rd edition." Dexterity being the god-stat and

Hmm. I read "always" & thought back to BECMi & AD&D 1e.
Let's see:

Want to go first? Dex. - yep, Basic & 1e
Want to avoid getting hit? Dex. - yep. and it worked with all armors.
Want to get out of the way of a fireball? Dex. - nope.
*Want to do any physical task that doesn't rely on brute strangth? Dex. - yep, I mean, what else are you going to roll against? Con in a few instances, maybe. But if not Str, then Dex.
Want to steal something? Want to hide something? Dex. - right there in 1e.
Want to hit with a bow? Dex. - yep.
*Want to play a class that isn't a caster or a brute? Dex. - So usually a Thief/Assassin/or ranged attacker.

So 6/7 have always applied (though two of them {*} are stretching for something to complain about IMO)

 

[Charlaquin]

*Want to do any physical task that doesn't rely on brute strangth? Dex. - yep, I mean, what else are you going to roll against? Con in a few instances, maybe. But if not Str, then Dex.
Want to steal something? Want to hide something? Dex. - right there in 1e.

I’d consider the latter to just be a specific case of the former, and the former I don’t think was really true in 1e. Most specific tasks were handled by percentile rolls with the chances determined by class.

*Want to play a class that isn't a caster or a brute? Dex. - So usually a Thief/Assassin/or ranged attacker.

Yeah, this one seems like a non-issue to me.

So 6/7 have always applied (though two of them {*} are stretching for something to complain about IMO)

I’d say 3/5, if you take the two that are streching out of consideration.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Dex is fine. In our games, It's mainly being used by characters with archetypes that demand high dex anyway, and they're not breaking anything about the game. Like everybody else, I've seen the occasional min-maxed elf paladin, but that's what min-maxers do: min-max stats. If you take away their possibility of min-maxing dex, they'll just min-max something else for your next campaign.

 

[Charlaquin]

*Want to do any physical task that doesn't rely on brute strangth? Dex. - yep, I mean, what else are you going to roll against? Con in a few instances, maybe. But if not Str, then Dex.
Want to steal something? Want to hide something? Dex. - right there in 1e.

I’d consider the latter to just be a specific case of the former, and the former I don’t think was really true in 1e. Most specific tasks were handled by percentile rolls with the chances determined by class.

*Want to play a class that isn't a caster or a brute? Dex. - So usually a Thief/Assassin/or ranged attacker.

Yeah, this one seems like a non-issue to me.

So 6/7 have always applied (though two of them {*} are stretching for something to complain about IMO)

I’d say 3/5, if you take the two that are streching out of consideration. And, yeah, that’s very strong. Dex has always been a very strong stat, but it has only been the Uber-stat since 3e.

 

[Kurotowa]

The efficiency of finesse builds isn't so much higher in 5e to make a huge difference. If you compare a Str 10 Dex 20 character against a Str 20 Dex 10 character the Str primary character has +1 AC, a massively larger weapon selection, higher modifiers when attempting combat moves like Grapple or Shove, higher carrying capacity, and higher checks for lifting or breaking things. The main advantage of the Dex primary character is better Dex saves, which is very handy but not huge.

It's not like 3e with uncapped ability scores and easy access to stat boosting magic items, where Dex was an endless well of additions to attack and defense at the same time. Between stat caps and more gradual scaling the two remain in much closer parity. And if your DM isn't throwing tailored magical gear at you, being restricted to only finesse weapons isn't a trivial thing.

 

[ad_hoc]

And if your DM isn't throwing tailored magical gear at you, being restricted to only finesse weapons isn't a trivial thing.

I think this is an often overlooked factor.

Games with magic shops or their equivalents will have different balances of options/characteristics. Pole-arm Master is another good example of this.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Definitely enforce carrying capacity, and for your next game consider using encumbrance rules.

Beyond that, just make Strength make a difference in the kind of challenges you run into--which in 5e often means going beyond the typical combat encounter.

Remember that Dexterity is useless for initiating any sorts of grappling/shoving stuff--it can only resist it. That may not matter if the PC isn't interested in grappling/shoving. But, for extra fun, have opponents use the Overrun action (DMG p. 272) to push past a Dex character, because it can't be resisted with Dex. They can forget about holding the line against a stronger opponent, they'll just push right past you. (Granted, Tumble can do the same thing in reverse--you have to resist it with Dex, but you aren't going to try to Tumble past someone who looks more agile than you.)

 

[Strider1973]

Thank you so much indeed, you've given me a lot of things to think and be creative about: many thanks again!

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think the Dexterity is simply too important and too good as a Stat in this game: it influences Initiative, AC (with light and medium armor), saving throws and ability/skill checks, and damage dealt with ranged and finesse weapons. Maybe a little too much...: in the campaign I'm running as a DM, the party features two fighters, and both of them are elves, dex based fighters, studded leather armor, with bow, rapier and shield.

Do you know if they chose to play characters like that because they are optimal mechanically, or because they just liked the concept of graceful, but less athletic characters.

I'm too lazy and I don't like tinkering with the rules too much, but I feel the need of doing something about this: my ideas are
1) removing the rapier as a weapon - but I don't like this at all
2) renaming the rapier as "broadsword" as in AiME, just for the flavor of a medieval setting, but it doesn't solve the problem of Dex being unbalanced as a Stat
3) removing the "finesse" quality from the rapier, and giving it the "light" quality, so as to allow two weapon fighting with a rapier and a dagger or a shortsword
4) toning down the damage die of the rapier from d8 to d6
5) modifying the official rule, and stating that you use Strength to determine the bonus to damage even with finesse weapons: if you want to use Dexterity to determine the bonus damage with finesse weapons, maybe you have to select a specific, homebrew Feat (maybe called Agile Fighter?) that allows you to do so.
What do you think?
Are Dex and rapier/finesse weapons a bug or a problem in your games and campaigns? If so, how do you handle it?
Many many thanks!

My houserules regarding Finesse etc:
A: Sneak attack does not require a Finesse weapon.
B: Bows can use either Strength or Dexterity modifiers for attack and damage.

Regarding your ideas:
Real rapiers require a higher Strength in 5e terms than many other weapons. The D&D rapier is probably closer to the smallsword/sidesword, which could be folded into the Shortsword category of the weapons table with no real issues.
Giving Rapiers the 'light' quality will encourage dual-wielding them rather than using them in combination with an off-hand dagger etc. This is a style, but it was pretty unusual. (So requiring the dual-wielder feat as you do now seems to fit better.)

To bear in mind:
A low-strength but effective weapon fighter might be unrealistic, but is a reasonably common trope in some forms of media. People may well want to play characters inspired by that, and perhaps the game should allow them to.
The Strength Stat in 5e isn't just bulk. It is also natural athleticism and ability to generate force. A character doesn't have to be huge to have a decent Strength score. Bruce Lee is a good example of a high-strength character, so a player doesn't need to have a character concept looking like Schwarzenegger to invest in the strength score. As a corollary, low strength can represent being overweight or out of condition rather than being small. A bit of a couch-potato is a good descriptor for a Str 8 character that people can relate to for example.

 

[Ratskinner]

Yes, I know... this topic has been treated over and over again, yet... I'm trying to play, and appreciate, D&D 5th ed. using Rules As Written. At the moment, D&D 5th ed is my go-to-game for Fantasy Settings and Campaigns, nevertheless I've got some problem with some of its rules.
<snippage>

Only way I can see to fix this requires a lot of changes in the fundamental rules....because with the current system, it seems to me that something will always end up being a "god stat". I mean, Strength used to be something of a god-stat for non-casters back in the day.