D&D 5E Old Vexed Question: All too Important Dexterity Stat and Finesse Weapons, namely the Rapier

[S'mon]

DEX is a bit overpowered but it's not a huge issue in practice - the party soon regrets it when everyone is STR 8 and they have to make Athletics checks.

One thing I do though is have high-draw weight bows that are STR based not DEX based; both realistic and helps balance things up a bit.

 

[PrimevalSeeker]

STR and DEX affect damage and hit for a specific set of weapons and AC either directly (DEX) or indirectly (STR to use heavy armor).

Any imbalance between the two arises by DEX having a better distribution of saving throws, that it affects more skills and also initiative. The first one can be fixed with another monster book, the last two need another edition.

Having a d8 DEX melee has not been a problem at our table so far. As long as d10, d12 and 2d6 melee weapons are kept STR based i think balance is fine. I kinda wish DW rapiers was not a thing though and that there would be alternatives to the rapier.

 

[Azzy]

Yes, I know... this topic has been treated over and over again, yet... I'm trying to play, and appreciate, D&D 5th ed. using Rules As Written. At the moment, D&D 5th ed is my go-to-game for Fantasy Settings and Campaigns, nevertheless I've got some problem with some of its rules.

I think the Dexterity is simply too important and too good as a Stat in this game: it influences Initiative, AC (with light and medium armor), saving throws and ability/skill checks, and damage dealt with ranged and finesse weapons. Maybe a little too much...: in the campaign I'm running as a DM, the party features two fighters, and both of them are elves, dex based fighters, studded leather armor, with bow, rapier and shield.

So, is this an actual in-game problem (that is, is it actually ruining the fun of your game) or is this simply a theoretical problem?

 

[5ekyu]

So, is this an actual in-game problem (that is, is it actually ruining the fun of your game) or is this simply a theoretical problem?

Also if it is actual in play problem can you give examples?

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I agree with some others that Rapiers aren't so much the issue as Dex is. I've house-ruled several things that limit or exchange Dex:

Initiative can be made using Dex, Int, or Wis, player's choice. The idea being Dex lets you react quicker, Int gives you knowledge of tactics, and Wis lets you read the situation and opponent better. You can't use more than one unless your archetype lets you use Int or Wis, in which case you can also add a second. With multiclassing and the proper archetypes, you could have all three (even Cha also with Swashbuckler...), but then you are pretty much just sculpting your character to go first.

Any armor that lists Disadvantage on stealth limits other skills such as acrobatics as well. Medium armors limit the Dex mod you can apply to checks just like it limits AC bonus. Medium Armor Master feat removes these.

There are enough other was to redefine how your AC is calculated and ways to buff AC that Dex is useful, but hardly the god-stat it once was.

Many other abilities Dex assists with can be accomplished in other ways, even if not so subtle.

But to address the OP:

1) removing the rapier as a weapon - but I don't like this at all
2) renaming the rapier as "broadsword" as in AiME, just for the flavor of a medieval setting, but it doesn't solve the problem of Dex being unbalanced as a Stat
3) removing the "finesse" quality from the rapier, and giving it the "light" quality, so as to allow two weapon fighting with a rapier and a dagger or a shortsword
4) toning down the damage die of the rapier from d8 to d6
5) modifying the official rule, and stating that you use Strength to determine the bonus to damage even with finesse weapons: if you want to use Dexterity to determine the bonus damage with finesse weapons, maybe you have to select a specific, homebrew Feat (maybe called Agile Fighter?) that allows you to do so.
What do you think?
Are Dex and rapier/finesse weapons a bug or a problem in your games and campaigns? If so, how do you handle it?

1) not necessary really to remove it completely (unless it doesn't fit your game, such as in my world)
2) right, doesn't solve your problem with rapiers
3) only limits finesse melee weapons to d6 only.
4) as with 3 above, limits finesse weapons to d6 maximum. I think rapiers were chosen as one weapon that would do a d8 to match other martial weapons.
5) this wouldn't bother me as a player, but you could house-rule it to finesse weapons add half Dex modifier (round up or down, your preference...). So with a Dex 18 you have the +4 to attack rolls, but only +2 to damage. Your homebrew feat could remove the limit and restore it to full Dex modifier to damage maybe.

For my game, rapiers don't fit the feel of play as in our history they didn't exist until the 1500s or so. I play more in the dark and middle ages type settings, so I just don't have them in the game.

Hope you work something out.

 

[Shiroiken]

If you don't actually change anything, Dex builds are really only slightly more powerful that Str builds. Let's go over each of your issues, and look at how important each actually is.

Initiative - IMO this is greatly overrated, except for blaster casters (who want to blow stuff up before melee begins) and other characters that get a class benefit from going first. It only impacts the first round of the combat, except possibly allowing 1 additional turn before the end. If you roll every round for initiative (an optional rule), then Dex becomes much stronger.


AC (with light and medium armor) - this is a wash, unless the DM is tight with money. Str based characters usually go heavy armor, allowing them to limit/ignore Dex. With splint armor you have the same AC as Studded Leather and +5 Dex, and with Plate you have better.

Saving Throws - THIS is the one that is actually the rub. Dex is one of the "big 3" saves and while Str is the best of the non-big 3, it's still nowhere near as common as Dex. This is the only thing that actually maxes Dex better, and that's because of the way Saving Throws are done. If they'd leveled out the saves (making all 6 important, as I felt they should have done), this wouldn't be a big deal, but it is. However, I don't think that this is actually important enough to change the way finesse works.

Ability/Skill Checks - these are determined by the DM. If you want to make Str more attractive, require more Str checks. They don't all have to be just Athletics either, because you can use the optional rule for skills with alternate abilities, such as Str/Intimidation (which is a common option).

Damage - Str has melee and thrown weapons, so it balances out. Also, there are no two-handed finesse weapons, nor anything higher than 1d8 damage die. Str has the option to deal more damage at the cost of using a shield, while Dex does not.

Final note on Shields and Bows - you know it takes an action to put on or take off a shield? This makes switching between ranged weapons for Dex characters much less useful, because except for Darts, all their stuff is 2 handed (ammunition requires a free hand to load).

 

[Mistwell]

Target their lower AC more, interfere with their line of sight, close with them, and run more dungeons.

That lack of AC for your supposed tanks will start to take it's toll. They're down 1 for medium armor, 2 for lacking shield, and the lack of magic shield will put them down 1, and lack of Defense (they took archery) will put them down another 1. In addition, the medium armors are rarer in random treasure magic item charts than plate armor, so they could be down 1 there as well. The combination is such they are firmly outside the "high AC" realm in mid levels. They will be hit more often than your typical sword and board tank.

In a dungeon setting, it's a lot easier to bring archers down. Foes should close with them often in the smaller confines, and this will interfere with line of sight and cause attacks at disadvantage more often.

With a lower AC, and melee combatants much closer, the archer doesn't look nearly as good as it does on paper. They hit a lot less with partial cover between them and their targets or disadvantage, and they take more damage with their lower AC and drawing opportunity attacks if they try to move off to get rid of the disadvantage.

It's really only when you give archers more space to work with that they can gain an advantage over melee. Don't give them that space. Which shouldn't be hard as this comes naturally if you run dungeons.

 

[ad_hoc]

Strength only having 1 skill is actually a benefit of Strength over Dexterity.

You only need to spend one skill vs 4 for Dexterity (though Thieves' Tools is easier to get as it is a tool proficiency)

 

[Horwath]

I just buffed up melee weapons that are non finesse by one step

Longsword or similar 1d8->1d10

greatsword/greatax or similar 2d6/1d12->2d8

2handed reach 1d10->2d6

 

[Oofta]

As others have stated, I've never see it be a big enough of an issue to do anything about it (yet). If I did there are a couple of options.

Get rid of the rapier. While you're at it, make long bows strength based instead of dexterity based. Traditional longbows had (depending on who you ask) a 180 pound pull.

Or require rapiers and longbows to have a minimum strength and/or limit damage from dex to strength mod times X, where X is 2-4. That would probably be more realistic - people point out fighters like Bruce Lee, but while the guy wasn't a body builder he certainly had above average strength.

Personally the only thing I currently do is allow strength based ranged weapons and don't care what kind of weapon you're using for that sneak attack.