Guns in D&D - A Hot Take

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm curious what your source is for this statement? To my understanding, guns came a couple centuries after plate armor was first "popular" (but they were in China many years before, of course). Even so, crossbows and longbows had plenty of penetrating power to pierce plate armors. Oddly enough, layered armors were more effective at stopping penetrating attacks.
Late medieval steel chest plates resisted bullets quite well, until guns got better. But it isn’t odd at all that layered armor is good at stopping projectiles. Each layer reduces the force that meets the next layer. I’d think that is exactly the expected outcome.

While you are correct about trauma, you are incorrect about bleeding. Arrows cause less bleeding because the shaft is largely blocking the wound. A bullet wound doesn't do that. Especially if there's an exit wound, which is devastating.

And in case anyone is curious about my credentials, I'm an ex-combat medic military veteran who has extensive experience around all kinds of firearms

how much experience you got with medieval to renaissance firearms?

Here is the Real Hot Take:

This thread, and the literal decades of people arguing ballistics and/or forensics, are exactly the wrong way to try and figure out damage dice for a gun in D&D. You need to address the mythology of the gun in order to make it fit into D&D.

Yep. Realism is meaningless unless it is soemthing IN GENERAL your group is into.

Make guns match what people expect at the table, what matches fiction, and is still pretty balanced.
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
I am not sure where the idea plate armour was designed to stop bullets came from. Sure accuracy was a problem, but even early guns had considerable stopping power at short and medium ranges. This video may be useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEPG98tTIlU

Plate wasn’t designed to stop bullets because it existed long before bullets were on the battlefield so obviously it was designed to stop other weapons. Some advanced plate could stop period bullets, but by then the cost to do so was so prohibitively expensive only the extreme wealthy could afford it. It certainly wasn’t an option for the infantry who was facing increased firearm useage In battle. Doesn’t mean it completely disappeared. IIRC, people were still using plated body armor in WWII in rare occasions. I know aircrews used plated armor much later, but I’m talking armor for the average soldier that was worn AND the soldier was expected to be mobile.
 
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Hussar

Legend
.

Just assign a basic damage roll. 1d6 for small caliber, 1d10 for medium, and 2d6 for large. Note, damage is not around pistol vs rifle, but actual size of the lead hitting you.

A question. Would you simply ignore pistol vs rifle when determining damage? Because, despite usually being smaller caliber, rifle rounds are typically far more damaging than pistol rounds simply due to muzzle velocity.

Your earlier picture shows that. A 9 mm pistol round scratches the paint while your 5.56 mm rifle round punches straight through.
 


This is again the classic debate about realism vs gameplay. Not only in the RPGs but also in the shooter videogames where the PC survive any shots and it is healed in only a second touching a medic kit.

The new technologies changed the sci-fi fiction, but also the high-fantasy genre. Now it isn't only the steampunk but also the "arcanepunk" or magic technology has appeared in the last years. Now fanboys wonder about why a steampunk mechanical golem is possible but not create modern firearms, or the fantasy equivalent of the graphene by alchemy.

This is not only about the balance of power between Ashe, McCree, Doomfist, Genji, Hanzo, Reinhardt and Bridgitte (heroes of Blizzard's Overwatch). Usually our point of view is only PCs are gunslingers and the enemies are only walking dartboards, but I am afraid you have forgotten when the PCs are more melee warriors (monks, barbarians, paladins..) and the enemies are gunslingers (for example steampunk goblins as alien invaders). A sniper from the top of a tree could be a nightmare for heroes without ranged attacks.

Other matter is when players create their own homebred rules against firearms. For example a catrip of low level spell to create a piece of ectoplasm to block enemies' canons or a bulletproof magic field for clerics of a war god. Maybe in a city firearms aren't used because they are too loud and the sacred temple creates an anti firearm field. In the battlefield the god of war could punish guns and rifles sending petitioners from the Valhalla with a ballistic damage resistance, or blessing no-gunslingers fighters with temporal bulletproof resistance because werebeast traits. Or the spellcasters could send by teletransportation summoned swarms or war beasts (if they are only mind-controlled animal who would worry about their sacrifice?). Or create illusions to hide squads like a smoke grenade, or duplicating illusory images to trick shooters. Or wizards could add an arcanepunk motor to the war-chariots and this would mean the end of the chavalry. Maybe they can create machine guns but they are useless in the magic because their mechanical pieces are blocked by low level spells and then they jam easily.
 

Quartz

Hero
A popular theory is that guns took over in warfare not because of their damage, range, or ease of use, but because they are loud. When you hear a row of guys fire mini-cannons at you, it is kinda scary.

I've not heard (ahem) that before. The key factor AFAIAA was training: it's easy to train someone to use a gun whereas archery takes years.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes! It is a pet peeve of mine when people want to give guns extraordinary damage. I get that being shot can be deadly, but is it really more deadly than being cleft in twain by a greataxe? Or stabbed by a shortsword? The advantage of modern guns is their rate of fire and ease of use.

In a hit point system, yes. Greataxes to that much damage in order to reduce the hit point pool by more than say a longsword or dagger.

If you want guns to retain their deadliness, but not do a lot of damage, create a system where you have hit points and body points. Then allow bullets to bypass hit points and strike the much lower body pool directly. You could even do a location chart in order to see when bullets strike the head or heart, causing fairly immediate death.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
A question. Would you simply ignore pistol vs rifle when determining damage? Because, despite usually being smaller caliber, rifle rounds are typically far more damaging than pistol rounds simply due to muzzle velocity.

Your earlier picture shows that. A 9 mm pistol round scratches the paint while your 5.56 mm rifle round punches straight through.

I would. For a few reasons:

1. Velocity does impacts wound channel, but mostly penetration and range. You could take less tissue damage from a high velocity round that went right through you, then you would from a lower velocity round that mushroomed and stayed inside you. In fact, that's why they created rounds that are designed to tumble in the first place, and why organizations like the FBI demand the rounds they use penetrate only a certain distance. For maximum stopping effect.

2. Because of so many factors, then you go down that dangerous path I mentioned earlier, about getting too complicated and bogging the game down. There are so many different ammunition types that you'd be all over the place trying to capture them all. For example, a .357 is used both in pistols and rifles, and acts much differently than a similar sized round in the 9mm. But are you using JHP? FMJ? Frangible? High Velocity? And if the mass and velocity are high enough, even if it goes right through you, it could still pretty much wreck you. Just way too many things to factor and way too many lines to draw. I've been down that rabbit hole. Often. And keep getting sucked back in :)

3. Since velocity impacts penetrating power and range much more than wound channel (even though it has a big impact here as well), the difference in captured better in game in the much different ranges for each (the max eff range for a pistol is about 50m while a rifle is 400ish. I.e., a medium pistol might do the same damage as a medium rifle at each bullet's effective range, but you wouldn't see it used nearly as often because it has a crappy effective range. I.e, getting hit in the chest by a 50 AE (.50 cal Desert Eagle) at 30 yards and a 7.62 at 200 yards isn't gonna matter too much to me which was worse. I'm pretty much screwed.*

So yeah, it comes down to a point where you just have to bring back a notch and go with a simpler approach knowing that there will be cases where it might be off.



But less than being beheaded. With a sword.

I imagine beheading would be considered a critical hit, and doesn't even exist in D&D rules unless you're using a vorpal weapon. The equivalent in game mechanic for a gun would probably do the same thing. I mean, does losing your whole head in a clean slice really make much of a difference compared to losing half of your head from a 7.62 round? And you're comparing slashing vs piercing. It would be like saying "Well, I can remove a head with a perfectly placed hand axe, but can't with a perfectly fired arrow, so that means the hand ax should do much more damage than the arrow." or "A spear head is three times larger than an arrowhead, so it should easily do three times the damage." Weapons do different types of trauma, so rather than look at what it could do with a perfect blow, we look at what it typically does in average combat. Ultimately, realism goes out the window for ease of gameplay, survive ability, and fun. It's just something we have to accept. It's why I think it's flawed to introduce firearms into the game and try to emulate realism there, when we don't with the weapons that already exist in the game.


*To avoid confusion, do not equate a .50 AE round with a .50 cal rifle round. Completely different. Caliber is determined by projectile diameter, not mass or velocity. It's like how a .22 and a .223 have almost the exact same diameter, but one is a tiny little plinky varmint round, and the other is used as the NATO standard rifle round (5.56). One is stopped by a small book, the other will go through 1/4" of steel plate with ease.
 

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