Healing to temp HPs ratio

[The Crimson Binome]

You can put temp hp on injured pcs effectively brining their hp to their max or possibly above.

in short an injured pc that receives 10 temp hp is just as well off as an injured of that receives 10 healing.

If they're going to take 10 damage, then it doesn't matter whether they lose 10thp or 10hp, but you have no way of knowing whether or not they'll take any damage after you cast your spell. If you give someone 10thp, and they don't get hit after that, then you've wasted a spell slot to no effect. Temporary Hit Points wear off, eventually.

The complicating factor is that HP damage also wears off, and it does so almost as quickly. Given the inordinate amount of free healing available, you're as likely to waste a spell slot by healing someone who was going to heal anyway, as you are to waste a spell slot by giving temporary HP to someone who doesn't use them.

 

[FrogReaver]

If they're going to take 10 damage, then it doesn't matter whether they lose 10thp or 10hp, but you have no way of knowing whether or not they'll take any damage after you cast your spell. If you give someone 10thp, and they don't get hit after that, then you've wasted a spell slot to no effect. Temporary Hit Points wear off, eventually.

The complicating factor is that HP damage also wears off, and it does so almost as quickly. Given the inordinate amount of free healing available, you're as likely to waste a spell slot by healing someone who was going to heal anyway, as you are to waste a spell slot by giving temporary HP to someone who doesn't use them.

Welp, I'm glad you worked that out. So you agree that when it comes to effectively healing an injured character that temp hp vs healing is pretty much the same level of effectiveness?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Welp, I'm glad you worked that out. So you agree that when it comes to effectively healing an injured character that temp hp vs healing is pretty much the same level of effectiveness?

It really depends on how long the temporary HP last, and what other measures the DM has taken to address healing in that campaign. They're roughly equivalent if they last until the end of your next short rest (when you can spend Hit Dice to heal for free), and if you heal back up to full overnight regardless. Temporary HP are worth substantially less than actual healing if they only last until the end of the current combat, or only for ten minutes; or if you don't have fast natural healing, such that you'll need to spend a spell to heal that damage eventually.

 

[Blue]

I was expecting this to be a thread about warlords.

You're not wrong. The catalyst for this question was reading Brandes Stoddard's part 6 of the history of the Warlord, which covers the Commander recently on the DM's Guild.

https://www.tribality.com/2019/02/20/the-warlord-class-part-six/

One of the points it makes is that it grants temp HP but has no healing, and I was thinking about that choice from a design perspective. It's one that can be made to feel more martial vs. magical, and how does that actually play in both in-combat and out-of-combat usage.

 

[Bawylie]

Ok, let’s concretize this scenario a little bit:

You’re a 1st level fighter with 15 CON and 6/12 HP while halfway through a goblin den. Your cleric (or whatever) buddy can cast one of the following 3 (hypothetical) spells:

1.) A spell that heals 1d8+2 HP.
2.) A spell that heals 1d6 HP and grants you an equivalent amount of THP that lasts until expended or 1 hr (whichever comes first).
3.) A spell that grants 2d6+2 temp HP that lasts until expended or 1 hr (whichever comes first).

You are at least 1 hour away from a safe place to rest. Which spell do you ask your buddy to cast on you?

 

[Kurotowa]

You are at least 1 hour away from a safe place to rest. Which spell do you ask your buddy to cast on you?

As long as you're expecting more combat in the next hour, 3 is strictly better than 1 because 1 can waste overhealing on a high roll and 3 is guarantied to give the full result of the roll. In this particular situation 2 will give the full result as well but will have a smaller result on average, so the only advantage is that part of the healing will carry over longer than 1 hour. So that choice depends a on your situation and plans.

It might help to examine some of the gameplay advantages of Temp HP. Just so we clear idea of what makes it so powerful.

The first advantage is Action Economy. Post-combat healing doesn't benefit the previous combat but the next one. In-combat healing benefits that combat but costs the healer an action. Pre-combat buffing with Temp HP costs an action, but it's an action before combat starts. That's not just free, that's better than free, because it saves the healer a combat action that can be used for something else.

The second advantage is a buffer against burst damage. Sometimes you're up against something with a really big special attack, or maybe the DM just rolls a string of crits or near max damage on a dragon breath. These big bursts of damage can take a PC from "slightly injured" to "rolling Death saves" in a single turn, before anyone can apply a healing effect. Having Temp HP that takes them above their usual max makes it less likely a PC will be downed by an unexpected burst of damage like that.

The third advantage is, as mentioned, that there's no chance of wasting a high roll with overhealing. The full result of a Temp HP effect will always be applied, so as long as you expect combat within the duration you'll get larger result in the long term with Temp HP versus normal healing.

Conversely, the big advantages of normal healing are that it doesn't have a duration or a stack limit. If a high HP martial PC is gravely injured, what they need is a lot of healing not a single Temp HP buff. As for duration, this really depends on your DM's style and how concentrated your adventuring day typically is. Temp HP buffs lend themselves to short intense periods of action, where as if you're spending half an hour traveling or exploring between encounters it's much more likely to have worn off before it's needed.

So really, both have their place, but it's easy to see how Temp HP could get out of control without all the limitations placed on it.

 

[5ekyu]

Ok, let’s concretize this scenario a little bit:

You’re a 1st level fighter with 15 CON and 6/12 HP while halfway through a goblin den. Your cleric (or whatever) buddy can cast one of the following 3 (hypothetical) spells:

1.) A spell that heals 1d8+2 HP.
2.) A spell that heals 1d6 HP and grants you an equivalent amount of THP that lasts until expended or 1 hr (whichever comes first).
3.) A spell that grants 2d6+2 temp HP that lasts until expended or 1 hr (whichever comes first).

You are at least 1 hour away from a safe place to rest. Which spell do you ask your buddy to cast on you?

"At least"

bah

if we expect combat i take the temp hp higher minumim and higher max.
if we know how far we are away and its more than an hour, i hold off until we have a better idea then cast the temp hp option.

once we can rest, odds are the HP dont matter.

But lets not forget heroism. bard level 1 or at higher levels can split to multiple targets.
Sure it means waiting until the combat is imminent but that scaling is HUGE. it east a concentration slot, sure, but that scaling is huge.

Even at just 3rd level, two front liners getting 3 free THP per round... for lets say 10 rounds. compare that to a 2d8+M heal for a single target. (Obviously the group heal is bigger if you have 10 m and everyone needs healing.) But even if heroism only lives up to half its potential thats 15 at first, 30 at second, 45 at 3rd.

My glamour-bard-to-be (2nd now) may well take Inspiring leader at 4th and rock Heroism, Inspiring leader and the mantle of inspiration to keep temp HP flowing. But it really depends on how things go between now and then and her mood at 4th.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok, let’s concretize this scenario a little bit:You’re a 1st level fighter with 15 CON and 6/12 HP while halfway through a goblin den. Your cleric (or whatever) buddy can cast one of the following 3 (hypothetical) spells:1.) A spell that heals 1d8+2 HP. 2.) A spell that heals 1d6 HP and grants you an equivalent amount of THP that lasts until expended or 1 hr (whichever comes first).3.) A spell that grants 2d6+2 temp HP that lasts until expended or 1 hr (whichever comes first). You are at least 1 hour away from a safe place to rest. Which spell do you ask your buddy to cast on you?

There's a few more variables to consider but typically the last option. However, it's only the last option because you gave that cleric both the ability to heal and the ability to grant a greater amount of hemp hp.Consider if the cleric had to choose between either knowing the spell to heal for 1d8+2 or knowing the spell that grants 2d6+2 temp hp for 1 hour. Which spell does that cleric choose? IMO he should choose the spell that can heal in that scenario. Especially since any amount of healing 1) can bring back from unconscious and 2) doesn't go away after an hour.

 

[Bawylie]

There's a few more variables to consider but typically the last option. However, it's only the last option because you gave that cleric both the ability to heal and the ability to grant a greater amount of hemp hp.Consider if the cleric had to choose between either knowing the spell to heal for 1d8+2 or knowing the spell that grants 2d6+2 temp hp for 1 hour. Which spell does that cleric choose? IMO he should choose the spell that can heal in that scenario. Especially since any amount of healing 1) can bring back from unconscious and 2) doesn't go away after an hour.

What if you had to choose between options 1 and 2? A heal spell for 1d8+2 or a spell that heals 1d6 and grants an equal amount of temp HP?

 

[FrogReaver]

What if you had to choose between options 1 and 2? A heal spell for 1d8+2 or a spell that heals 1d6 and grants an equal amount of temp HP?

Alot would depend on how they scale with higher level spell slots. If the first scales by +1d8 per slot and the second scales by 1d6 healing and 1d6 temp hp per slot then i'm choosing it hands down!