D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Yaarel]

Here is an example of how the water itself has been destroyed, even Elemental Plane of Water itself is being destroyed.

EAFW 31
"
Water Clerics

Among the elemental brotherhood, none are more desperate than the [elemental] lords of the Elemental Plane of Water. Millennia ago, these beings were happy, babbling through brook and floating leisurely in the vast, blue seas. Now they are claustrophobic, screaming for EACH DROP LOST to the parched earth.

They know that they must quench the thirst of the land before their streams and rivers can return, but every spilled drop of water is yielded grudgingly. It must be so, for THE PLANE OF WATER HAS NEARLY PERISHED.

The [mortal] champions of THE DYING PLANE OF WATER are few. Their [elemental] lords are barely able to empower them.

Still, they perform the age-old functions of water as healer and bringer of life.

Since creation, the patient [elemental] water lords poured their very [own] souls over the land, knowing that the land would be saturated with their life giving liquids. They had not counted on the mass destruction caused by the defilers. THEIR EVIL SPELLS turned everything to ash, and ALL AMBIENT MOISTURE WAS LOST.

And this was new. [In ancient times], WATER had evaporated, frozen, boiled, and passed through the systems of a billion beings. But HAD never before BEEN DESTROYED."

"

 

[Steampunkette]

All the more reason for Dark Sun to be cut off from the rest of the Multiverse. Their Plane of Water is almost gone.

And when it's gone, when the last of the ambient moisture is destroyed... everyone dies.

 

[Larnievc]

The Dark Sun book, Earth Air Fire Water, specifies that the element of water gets destroyed. But I dont have it at hand to give a quote.

Are you sure? I've just had a quick look and I can't find any reference to the effects of defiling.

 

[Steampunkette]

Are you sure? I've just had a quick look and I can't find any reference to the effects of defiling.

... Yaarel and I both quoted the relevant passage which is under the Water Cleric section.

 

[Larnievc]

Here is an example of how the water itself has been destroyed, even Elemental Plane of Water itself is being destroyed.

EAFW 31
"
Water Clerics

Among the elemental brotherhood, none are more desperate than the [elemental] lords of the Elemental Plane of Water. Millennia ago, these beings were happy, babbling through brook and floating leisurely in the vast, blue seas. Now they are claustrophobic, screaming for EACH DROP LOST to the parched earth.

They know that they must quench the thirst of the land before their streams and rivers can return, but every spilled drop of water is yielded grudgingly. It must be so, for THE PLANE OF WATER HAS NEARLY PERISHED.

The [mortal] champions of THE DYING PLANE OF WATER are few. Their [elemental] lords are barely able to empower them.

Still, they perform the age-old functions of water as healer and bringer of life.

Since creation, the patient [elemental] water lords poured their very [own] souls over the land, knowing that the land would be saturated with their life giving liquids. They had not counted on the mass destruction caused by the defilers. THEIR EVIL SPELLS turned everything to ash, and ALL AMBIENT MOISTURE WAS LOST.

And this was new. [In ancient times], WATER had evaporated, frozen, boiled, and passed through the systems of a billion beings. But HAD never before BEEN DESTROYED."

"

I can see how water could be destroyed by magic- as is indicated by the text. But as I said- plants get ashed as as a by product the water gets ashed too, in the same way the cellulose is ashed.

If you had a dead leaf next to a bucket of water and defiled nothing would happen to either of them because it is the life force that is being used in the spell.

For example, in the Obsidian Plane with no plant (or any) life arcane spells cannot be cast even though the wizard may have water on their person.

 

[Steampunkette]

Further context: The Dark Sun Campaign Setting defiling entry:

Defilers wield magic with no concern for their dying world: Indeed, defilers are much to blame for Athas's current state. With each spell they cast, defilers draw magical energy from the life force of plants in the vicinity and channel it to their own selfish ends. Even the sorcerer-kings, however, are not the most dread users of defiler magic: the great dragon's defiler magic is so powerful that it destroys living animals as well. All magic cast by defilers up to 20th level, including all 1st through 9th level spells, destroys plant life only. Any creatures in the area, however, suffer great pain.

Casting Defiler Spells: Spells cast by defilers use all the necessary verbal, somatic, and material components. The absence of any of these precludes the successful casting of the spell. The range, duration, casting time, area of effect, and saving throws remain unchanged. When a defiler casts a spell, all vegetation in a sphere around him turns to ash. The radius of that sphere depends upon two things: the abundance of vegetation in the area, and the level of the spell cast.

Effects on Living Creatures: Though only plants are destroyed within the radius, living creatures are caused great pain. Any being in the radius of a defiler's magic suffers an immediate initiative modifier penalty equal to the level of the defiler spell cast. No matter how high the resulting initiate roll, though, the pain can never keep a character from performing an action during a round. The initiative penalty only postpones when the action occurs.

Ash: The ash created by defiler magic is black and grey, completely devoid of life or life-giving elements. Nothing will grow in an area of ash for one year. The ash itself is very light and usually blows away, leaving behind a lifeless, circular scar on the ground. Even with the ash gone, though, the defiler's magic has leeched all life-giving nutrients from the soil, so that an area defiled may take many years to recover life, if it ever does.

And the Revised version:

Defilers, on the other hand, care only for power, reveling in it as it courses through their bodies. They don’t care about the life forces that are lost when they weave their webs of magic. Nearby plants whither and die when a defiler draws power for his spells, and the fertile soil surrounding him turns to sterile ash.

The sorcerer-kings are defilers of the highest order, and they combine wizardry with psionics. They can draw the energy for spells from not only plants, but from all living things—including animals and humans. This makes the sorcerer-kings extremely powerful and very dangerous to the world and its inhabitants.

So it's not just -plants-, but also fertile land that turns to Ash. So the soil itself is also destroyed. Probably because it has liquid and tiny microbial life that "Counts" as a plant, essentially.

 

[Yaarel]

All the more reason for Dark Sun to be cut off from the rest of the Multiverse. Their Plane of Water is almost gone.

And when it's gone, when the last of the ambient moisture is destroyed... everyone dies.

I also notice that the Dark Sun water elementals inhabit the planet of Athas itself, in the Material Plane: "These beings were happy, babbling through brook, and floating in the seas."

Thus, the elementals themselves can be met, by going to any water source on the planet.

It might be better to understand the "Plane of Water" as something like a demiplane that is potentially accessible from anywhere where water exists. There are elementals in this demiplane, but there are also elementals in the Material World. So the boundary between these realms seems porous.

So it's not just -plants-, but also fertile land that turns to Ash. So the soil itself is also destroyed. Probably because it has liquid and tiny microbial life that "Counts" as a plant, essentially.

Plus the destruction of "ambient moisture" sounds like the atmospheric humidity is destroyed.

 

[Steampunkette]

I also notice that the Dark Sun water elementals inhabit the planet of Athas itself, in the Material Plane: "These beings were happy, babbling through brook, and floating in the seas."

Thus, the elementals themselves can be met, by going to any water source on the planet.

It might be better to understand the "Plane of Water" as something like a demiplane that is potentially accessible from anywhere where water exists. There are elementals in this demiplane, but there are also elementals in the Material World. So the boundary between these realms seems porous.

Not all elementals, but at least -some- do.

The elemental plane of water is still it's own plane connected to the Prime Material where Athas is, but Primal Spirits are a type of elemental bound to the geographic features of Athas.

 

[Laurefindel]

Looking at images of Dark Sun old vs new(er), I must admit that I want the 90s (desert punk?) aesthetics to come back. This may be the 15-years-old-that-I-was in me, but I miss the sweaty, scantly-clad mul gladiators, sorceresses in revealing vestments, tight-fit leggins and strange leather vests, insectoid jewelry and armors, and the understatement that freedom of movement is just as good a defense as heavier, more cumbersome armor.

Brom's art is more often than not over-sexualized, but moreso because of the model's pose rather than the aesthetics itself...

 

[Steampunkette]

Looking at images of Dark Sun old vs new(er), I must admit that I want the 90s (desert punk?) aesthetics to come back. This may be the 15-years-old-that-I-was in me, but I miss the sweaty, scantly-clad mul gladiators, sorceresses in revealing vestments, tight-fit leggins and strange leather vests, insectoid jewelry and armors, and the understatement that freedom of movement is just as good a defense as heavier, more cumbersome armor.

Brom's art is more often than not over-sexualized, but moreso because of the model's pose rather than the aesthetics itself...

You're absolutely right.

The amount of skin showing is not nearly as important as the framing of the image. The expression, the pose, the tension, are all -way- more important in making an image sexualized.

If I wasn't sure it'd get scrubbed for not being "Grandma Friendly" I'd post a youtube video of Cazwell's Ice Cream Shop as a demonstration. Dudes who are nicely muscled wearing swimsuits or underwear can be casual or sexy AF depending entirely on their attitude and presentation.

I've made many a dude uncomfortable with that music video, even though nothing winds up showing that would trigger Youtube's ban-hammers.

Instead, here's an article on a psychological study measuring brainwave patterns that provides evidence to the fact.

The Psychologist - The British Psychological Society

digest.bps.org.uk