Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

[Aldarc]

And the goals are somewhat personal as well. You're not saving a kingdom for the sake of saving it, you're saving it because it's rightfully yours. Or you're clashing with that evil cult because they've squatted in this ancient temple and you know the Crown of Athos is in there somewhere.

The kingdom may not be rightfully yours, but if you want it and fight for it, it may be yours by the time you've finished saving it from a weak "legitimate" king.

Good points- I think that it would not just be fun, but also a very useful exercise to see how different systems implement S&S!

You likely have 1E and B/X covered on that front. I would also consider looking at Dark Sun (2e D&D), Forbidden Lands (Fria Ligan), The Dying Earth (DCC), Stormbringer (BRP), and Conan (2d20). Undoubtedly there are many others, but going through all the examples would be a bit much for what is meant to be more of a drive-by-post.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think that some ideas from tragic romantic fantasy, like Guy Gavriel Kay, can actually be really good S&S adventure hooks.

The Sorcerer King lost his favorite child to the people of one PC's homeland, and the Sorcerer King responded by breaking their towers, raping their wealth, burning their libraries, and cursing their land so that only natives could hold the name of the land in their mind, could hear it without immediately forgetting it. These once proud folk are now scattered, though some remain in their homeland, which is now named after their oldest rivals (becoming Lower Corte in the novel Tigana). The people cannot even say their proper names in the presence of others, because they styled themselves using the name of their principality (d'Tigana), and the pain of saying the word and seeing a blank face is enough that most are simply trying to move on and forget.

But not the PC and their allies. They seek to end this curse, but it is complicated by the presence of another Sorcerous invader in the region who will sweep in and take the Sorcerer Kings lands if he is killed or his power broken, so they must find a path to break the power of both Sorcerers and free the region, not just their own land. Not because they care about the lives of their neighbors, but because their own home will never be free while either Sorcerer is there.

That is from a novel (Tigana) that is very much romantic fantasy based on medieval Italy and it's city states and provinces that often allowed invaders in on the promise that the invaders would destroy their rivals, but it's a story hook that works beautifully in S&S, either as a PC background, a "you're all from here" group background, or even the background of a quest giver, who might in turn try to send the PCs to their death in order to achieve his ends.

Hell, the PCs could start out as mercenaries in the employ of one of the Sorcerers, and get dragged into the rebellious plots by circumstance and by reluctant and begrudging empathy and the promise of wealth, and/or by their favorite NPC friend being revealed to be involved and/or getting taken prisoner by one of the Sorcerers.

 

[ART!]

First off: I'm enjoying and appreciating this thread immensely. I've had it in my heads to run a D&D 5E S&S game for quite a while, and there's now a window coming up for me to do so. I really want to bore down into how to structure things so that the tone is kind of built in to chargen and into how I run it.

As an aside: I think that it would be quite fun to design a Sword & Sorcery campaign world for Cortex Prime. One could easily frame the usual S&S motivations in a prime set (e.g., Values: Steel, Wealth, Revenge, Glory, Romance, Freedom, etc.), which means that players would actively be engaging these tropes when making rolls.

I've had this idea for a while to apply Cortex-like dice sizes to Personality Traits and maybe other elements of Backgrounds in 5E. They would work like the variant Proficency Die rule in the 5E DMG, i.e. when applicable you add the die from the appropriate trait to a roll. I might even include the "1s are complications" thing, in which case the Flaw from Personality Traits would always be a d4.

 

[MGibster]

I think there is a potential for tension between the first and second bits of what I've quoted. That's why I was suggesting a greater degree of player-generation of the focus of play.

That tension is always there but it can be mitigated by the GM sitting down with the players and discussing what they can expect in the campaign. But I'm looking at this almost entirely through the lens of Conan stories from Howard and Marvel Comics which I have to acknowledge is not the only way to look at it. So I'm coming at it from the perspective that the PCs goals won't necessarily be the same from session to session and with the successful conclusion of a long term goal representing the end of the campaign.

 

[Yora]

I think Sword & Sorcery benefits particularly well from not having an expectation of what happens next. The GM writing a custom adventure based on what the players say they want and what happened in the last game certainly is a considerable degree of freedom, but I think the more roguish and swashbuckling you get, the more desirable it becomes for the players to be able to completely throw everything they planned out of the window in the heat of the moment and do something drastically different.
They players may have said at the end of the last game that they will accept the offer of the thieves' guild and work together against a common foe, but there should be room for the players deciding they actually want to betray the thieves and expose the entire plan to a rival faction. I think this should be possible, and the players understand that they have this option without making many hours of preparation completely pointless. And of course, in such situations, the GM should prepare material accordingly.

I'd have to read the whole thing again to be sure, but I think that's exactly what the whole don't prep plots is about.

 

[Ath-kethin]

I think another factor to keep in mind for a Sword & Sorcery type world/campaign is how commoners view magic. I feel I hammer on this point a lot, but common people would be terrified of magic and anyone who can use it, especially if most magicians they saw were doing evil or harmful things (cultists, the corrupt king's mind readers, turning folks into newts, etc.). Now, some people argue that levying a massive social penalty onto magic-using PCs is unfair, but I think it's something that you can cover in your Session 0 if not before.

Nobody trusts a magic user, and even clerics aren't going to be immune to that; sure, your magic brought Urgevd the Cobbler back to his feet and even restored his mangled arm - but what ELSE did it do? And will that evil spread? And how do we know you aren't just controlling all of our minds as we speak?!

 

[TimWest]

I think Sword & Sorcery benefits particularly well from not having an expectation of what happens next.

Yes because IMO there's an inherent selficiousness to the genre. Characters have to have the freedom to change their goals at any time, whether it's for self-preservation or because they spot a new better opportunity.

Contrasted with heroes in high fantasy that will not be swayed from their big quest.

 

[Yora]

Magic certainly is not a tool that makes everyday live easier and more convenient. Games like D&D have a good amount of minor spells that do things which replace modern tools and devices. You don't see that in Sword & Sorcery. People would look at it like that time in The Simpsons (yes, I'm that old, but so are many of us here) where Homer gets a revolver and casually just turns off things in the house by shooting them. Even other sorcerers would call it insane because magic is a dangerous tool and weapon, not a harmless toy.

I think generally speaking, there is clearer distinction between the natural and the supernatural. Which often can even be described as the unnatural. Magic spells and magic creatures have no place in the world and lives of ordinary people. They know that such things exist, but they exist somewhere else in exotic and dangerous places.

I also think that supernatural beings should not be portrayed like people. You can certainly have creatures that have the appearance of people, but it should be clear that that's just an outward disguise hiding a monstrosity. You certainly could have elves, but you wouldn't have an elf travel in a PC party and sleep at inns or drink beer in taverns.

 

[Dioltach]

If I were to write an S&S adventure as such (pretty much all my adventures lean in that direction, but I've never actually set out to achieve true S&S), I'd probably try a couple of ingredients:

- Start in medias res. The PCs are involved in something fairly innocuous - a standard burglary, guarding a caravan, traversing a mountain pass - and suddenly things start to happen.

- The "things that happen" would be of the fantastical and not-previously-encountered variety. The PCs, and preferably the players too, should be forced to stretch their imagination to overcome the challenge. As a DM, I rarely plan the solution, I'd rather let the players come up with something themselves.

- If at all possible, use E6. A 6th-level character is quite impressive by most S&S standards, particularly compared with your average commoner, without going into superhero territory. Even at their most impressive, they should be underdogs, or at least vulnerable. Death is an ever-present possibility.

- The adventure should be fairly short. One session, that's it. Or at most a few distinct chapters that each last one session.

- The PCs might be morally ambiguous, but their opponents should be unambiguously evil. Affable evil is Ok, but no sympathetic villains. When the hero's sword cleaves the BBEG's head, or their dagger sinks into their back, there should be no regrets, no question marks.

This isn't an exhaustive list, but definitel where I'd start.

 

[MGibster]

I think another factor to keep in mind for a Sword & Sorcery type world/campaign is how commoners view magic. I feel I hammer on this point a lot, but common people would be terrified of magic and anyone who can use it, especially if most magicians they saw were doing evil or harmful things (cultists, the corrupt king's mind readers, turning folks into newts, etc.).

In an early issue of Marvel's Savage Sword of Conan (1974), Conan runs into some cultist who got their hands on a magical ring that's still attached to the owner's hand. After dispatching the cultist, Conan clearly sees the golden bejeweled ring is magical and says to himself that such things aren't worth the trouble they bring and just leave it on the ground. I can scarcely imagine a D&D character behaving in a similar manner. I'd severely limit the access PCs had to magic in any S&S game I ran.