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Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

CapnZapp

Legend
Sword & Sorcery is a somewhat old fashioned style of heroic fantasy that is primarily really just a somewhat more specific style of aesthetics and tone. While there's been a good number of RPGs in recent decades that bill themselves as Sword & Sorcery games, most are rally just regular D&D without elves, dwarves, and clerics.

If you look around the internet, you can find a number of discussions that popped up over the years on what you need for a Sword & Sorcery campaign, and it's generally always the same list of established conventions, that oddly enough doesn't actually match with many of the classic stories that are considered foundational to the style. "Humans only, no spellcasters, no alignment, but the PCs should also all be pretty evil". Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

But let us say you have established your setting and think it feels sufficiently swordly and sorcerous. And you have your dusty starting town on the edge of the monster infested wilderness and your party of baass PCs. What happens now?

What kind of stories do we actually tell in a Sword & Sorcery campaign? We have a couple of classic elements that feel very much at home in the Sword & Sorcery style. Evil wizards, brutal warlords, ruined cities, piles of gold and jewels, demons, undead, giant spiders, giant snakes, giant apes, and frogs. But none of this is exactly unusual in any other styles of fantasy either. (Except the frogs.)
There are several cool things about S&S and also too much dogmatic discussion ("you're having badwrongfun"). People take the right to judge others as if they can't separate fiction from reality. Just because I want inequality in my S&S does not mean I condone it or want it in real life. Duh.

Sword & Sorcery has three main characteristic traits, which are protagonist who exist outside the normal structure of society and its rules, act on their own initiative and their own personal reasons, and who deal with any obstacles by taking decisive action. It's not the only definition of Sword & Sorcery, but I think few people would deny these traits to be typical elements of the style.
I'm sorry but your three core traits boil down to playing a murder hobo and that doesn't set S&S apart.

I would instead say the core element is that the stories aren't epic. I would not say S&S is low fantasy, but at least it isn't high fantasy and certainly not epic fantasy. Threats and possibilities are more grounded more human. If you can just jump over castle walls, or teleport through them, or level mountains with a stare it isn't S&S. On the other hand, S&S has no time for pig-farming low fantasy either.

So most low-level fantasy fare would work from a story progression perspective. The trappings are of course different. Actually you need a different world than your regular D&D feudal villages to help players recalibrate their expectations and their roleplay. If you act like a true S&S barbarian in the small town of Somerset everybody is going to be upset or disgusted. But in the frontier town of Xultek nobody bats an eye. Exact same character doing exactly the same things. (Actually western adventures would probably work really well, assuming the GM makes the effort to lose the six-shooters and the locomotives, and turn the evil rancher with the job into a self-proclaimed God-Emperor of his teeming but otherwise insignificant city)

S&S is about solving challenges with daring and muscle. Neither technology nor magic should be able to replace muscle. The core character class of any S&S adventure needs to be the Fighter. S&S heroes need to expend real effort, and S&S should be steamy and sweaty. One painful discussion point, then, is magic items. The purist approach is to remove magical +1 bonuses and make heroes rely on their own abilities. Perhaps a sensible alternative is to reskin magic swords as just really sharp ones. If you currently play D&D as written and have no issues with gold having little purpose, then fine. But many players will have trouble adapting to a game expecting gold to just run through their fingers, wasted on wine, women and song.

S&S is also "not epic" in that there is no place for the moral hero. While nobody finds it fun to play a suffering hero, NPCs should not have the same luck. I feel S&S is excellent for moral dilemmas with no easy solution - and no cosmic retribution for choosing the low road. S&S heroes should never be chastised for choosing the selfish or greedy or easy out. That's not the same thing as requiring players to play evil characters. It's just that good isn't rewarded and evil isn't punished. You're welcome to still avoid evil deeds - no point in playing a character whose morals disgust you, just as long as you realize you're playing in an uncaring world and you can't and should not get sidetracked by starting to right wrongs just because. Many adventures (especially D&D adventures) are written with "good wins out in the end" but a surprising number of scenarios can be (re)used by just dropping this notion. (In fact lots of D&D adventures would have become straight up just better if the scenario where the bad guys can win is taken seriously)

S&S is not equal and not fair. Might makes right, and if the "heroes" happen to come out on top, that helps nobody, because they will likely just drink their stay dry and when they go broke, move on. And it certainly does not have to be politically correct. If you personally don't like the notion that race is very significant and deterministic, fine, but to many a core aspect of S&S is the notion that civilization corrupts. The longer your character's civilization has existed, the unhealthier your people are in mind and body. While old timer S&S writers were outright racist (so that northern caucasians were the most pure and people from faux-Rome and faux-Egypt and faux-Babylon, say, were the peoples most associated with degeneration and debauchery and dark magics) you can change that aspect. I just find removing it to be too simplistic (few protesters think to replace the core theme they dislike with something equally compelling.) Other not-fair things like hunger or slavery or gender inequality are probably things you're able to see as tools not obstacles, otherwise why are you into S&S in the first place...

You say old fashioned. In the case of S&S, that's a good thing. S&S should be a "simpler" world where there's a limit to how far intrigue and talk can take you, and there's a point when pure action needs to be applied.

A game like D&D 5E is actually very well suited to S&S. However, if your players are currently enamored with high-level play and its spells and gadgets, you might want to hold off or choose other players. In fact, I wonder if D&D players aren't having a harder time acclimatizing to S&S than players of other systems...?

Random list (with only one item right now, since I already used Westerns):
* Journeying to the center of the earth is very S&S! Primitive and retrograde!

From what, we can postulate three things to keep in mind when running adventures that aim to evoke a feeling of Sword & Sorcery: 1) The PCs should not be bound to do anything by duty or obligation, 2) the PCs need to have their own stakes in whatever is going on, and 3) the GM should keep pressure on the players to do something and not give them any more than only a reasonable amount of time to discuss their next steps.

The first two are where I see some challenges pop up. When the PCs should have their own stakes in what is going on, but they also should be free agents and wildcards, how do you set up the hook to get them involved in the first place?
Yes, acknowledging that S&S heroes might not do it because it's the right thing to do is key.

Start off by having them save their own lives is another good thing. So attack them! Don't bother with much of a back-story, they can sort that out at the campfire afterwards!

If they decide they want to find out who's behind the attacks, fine, you have your story. Just be aware it's a very S&S thing to just shrug and move on "it's not my war". On the other hand, it's also very S&S to be forced into doing something. What's railroading in regular fantasy is a trope in S&S. (And it better be. You don't exactly have the "look the villagers are suffering, somebody rescue them" hook to play)

I wouldn't hesitate tempting them with their base instincts. If those attacking did so because the heroes stumbled into a battle zone, and the soldiers just assumed the heroes worked for the other side, they might inadvertently "rescue" a princess from her captors/kidnappers. A beautiful royal woman is worth more than entire cities for petty kings, but the heroes might just take her for themselves, or they might want to bring her to the attackers (holding no grudge for being attacked, seeing that all those 30 men paid for their mistake with their life).

It's kind of a sandboxy experience. Sure if you offer a ruined tower rumored to hold a giant ruby, no good player will just waste all your preparation by skipping it. But it's important to not judge choices. How otherwise enable players to truly the whole spectrum from selfless to selfish. (That's still not "evil". If your player starts torturing or raping, feel free to just stick a dagger in him. He can't very well complain a swift and nasty death isn't a S&S trope!)

So yes I feel D&D works really well. It's like playing a murder hobo with an unusual emphasis on the "hobo" part, and encouraging people to just live life to the fullest because it can end at any time.

If you play with downtime and building churches and guilds, this will be hard for you. But a murder hobo has no home and builds nothing lasting. Which is why I feel it can be a mistake to nix the gold for equipment mini-game that was a part of D&D previously. You can't fault players to want to build something, and to me it makes much more sense to build onto your character than the riches and kingdoms that will slip between your fingers eventually. (Sure you can do that with swords too; it's just that with the simple tweak that is "you gain quality not magic bonuses", I find that the game works for you and not against you). Plus, money is a far weaker motivator in a game than in real life. S&S heroes are supposed to risk their lives for mere gold, and just saying "you can carouse harder with more gold" is just not enough for many players. Enabling players to convert gold into game stat upgrades (if not actual items) actually works well for many gamers.

In fact, if you want to talk real hard-core old-fashionism there's the gold for xp paradigm. Heh! Nothing explains the greedy behavior of S&S protagonists better than if it is their players' key to leveling them up! It easily provides motivation for most to risk their hero's life and even throw it away sometimes! ;)

In the end (an end I think ttrpg players will reach much faster than, say, comic book readers) you probably will want to fight for something greater than yourself. After all, if your character starts each adventure from zero, it will be hard to build any campaign sense, and eventually you're going to tire of "random" one-offs.

Whether this means surrounding the heroes with families and concubines that are cruelly removed from them to motivate them (easy to overdo; don't want the heroes to go fully nihilistic), or whether it means slowly unraveling a cosmic dark horror that is slowly eating the entire world (so that, again, you basically have no choice) I can't say.

Some games settle for playing until a king or warlock has been defeated. No need or desire to even reach the higher levels (even though a level 16 S&S Fighter cannot fundamentally do anything a level 4 Fighter can't; he can only do it far faster and more lethally)
 

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Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
In an early issue of Marvel's Savage Sword of Conan (1974), Conan runs into some cultist who got their hands on a magical ring that's still attached to the owner's hand. After dispatching the cultist, Conan clearly sees the golden bejeweled ring is magical and says to himself that such things aren't worth the trouble they bring and just leave it on the ground. I can scarcely imagine a D&D character behaving in a similar manner. I'd severely limit the access PCs had to magic in any S&S game I ran.
You make a good point!

And a decent solution is upping the proportion of magical items that carry curses. Yes, there's a benefit, but at what cost? And invariably, some will feel the cost is worth it, but not everyone. And the assumption will (eventually) be that ALL items are cursed and/or not worth it.

I dig it!
 

Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
<snippity snip>

I also think that supernatural beings should not be portrayed like people. You can certainly have creatures that have the appearance of people, but it should be clear that that's just an outward disguise hiding a monstrosity. You certainly could have elves, but you wouldn't have an elf travel in a PC party and sleep at inns or drink beer in taverns.
I agree with this one 100% and add that any magic-users would/should be seen as supernatural under this paradigm.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
To me, the defining aspect of Sword & Sorcery stories is their personal nature - the stories are small and local. I argue that I've never run anything BUT Sword & Sorcery adventures ever since I started playing D&D back in '95 or so.
That's true.

Still, S&S is more Dark Sun than Forgotten Realms.

(You can run small and local adventures in the Realms, especially at low levels, but you would never mistake them for S&S)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
My own view, and experience, is that the things you are proposing here - spending time at the table on the circumstances leading to adventure, on keeping track of the passage of time, and on keeping detailed track of money - are apt to produce play that does not feel very S&S-ish.
The basic reason I feel D&D 5E is the best version of D&D to play S&S is simply because it is the simplest and least administration-heavy one. Short and long rests instead of counting minutes and rounds. (It's easy to forget how cluttery 3E was... at least until you come across something like PF2 ;)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I agree that OD&D is very S&S but I’m not sure about your “do good save the world” argument. I’d consider Masters of the Universe and John Carter of Mars to be S&S for instance and in both of those the protagonist are heroic outsiders who do good deeds to save kingdom and ultimately the world. Conan when rising through the ranks eventually becomes Captain in the Army and then of course King where he must defend his kingdom against external threats and internal plots.

For me S&S protagonist arent morally ambiguous but rather their society is - civilisation is depicted as inherently corrupt, and evil people use deception and dark powers to oppress others. A hero in S&S chooses to oppose these deceptions through direct physical action.
Yes. You can do good in S&S, you're just not expected to. And you seldom get any cosmic rewards for it.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think it could be a good practice for Sword & Sorcery adventures to plan for plenty of NPCs who can be bribed, blackmailed, or otherwise made to betray their allies by the players. Which can be a great use of money. I wouldn't allow players to get rid of obstacles like that, but it can be used to create opportunities to strike directly against an enemy who is otherwise too well protected.
A good point.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
By understanding the issue and the history, you answer your question.

The first two are where I see some challenges pop up. When the PCs should have their own stakes in what is going on, but they also should be free agents and wildcards, how do you set up the hook to get them involved in the first place?

Traditionally, S&S in D&D is accomplished pretty simply- to quote Goodman Games:
The protagonists in sword-and-sorcery fiction are most often thieves, mercenaries, or barbarians struggling not for worlds or kingdoms, but for their own gain or mere survival. They are rebels against authority, skeptical of civilization and its rulers and adherents. While the strengths and skills of sword-and-sorcery heroes are romanticized, their exploits take place on a very different stage from one where lovely princesses, dashing nobles, and prophesied saviors are cast as the leads. Sword-and-sorcery heroes face more immediate problems than those of questing kings. They are cousins of the lone gunslingers of American westerns and the wandering samurai of Japanese folklore, traveling through the wilderness to right wrongs or simply to earn food, shelter, and coin.

In the classic mode, the players are (as you put it) the free agents and the wildcards; put another way, they are mercenaries- sellswords. Their own stake is to continue to earn food, shelter, and coin, especially early on.

The "hook" should just be that- the desire of the players to adventure, to make money, to gain for themselves. You don't need to shipwreck them. There is no requirement that they start out at a particular disadvantage.

The nature of what they do (and want) provides the course of the campaign; if they take X adventure from Y petty noble, then maybe they anger Z noble, who will then endeavor to make like ... difficult for them. Or maybe Y noble doesn't want to pay them. Or perhaps their renown attracts the attention of others, higher up the foodchain, requiring a quick retreat away from the supposed-homebase that they are in.

In other words, the difficulty in understanding your question is because this is already an established method of gameplay that goes to the origins of D&D; to ask "What hook could I possibly come up with for S&S campaigns," seems odd, but perhaps I misunderstand the question you ask. Who knows.
Fine. But the trappings matter. It's an established method of gameplay alright but what you feel you can do in the world and how NPCs react matter.

The fact you could have the exact same story in Forgotten Reams and Hyboria doesn't mean S&S isn't its own thing.
 

Aldarc

Legend
In an early issue of Marvel's Savage Sword of Conan (1974), Conan runs into some cultist who got their hands on a magical ring that's still attached to the owner's hand. After dispatching the cultist, Conan clearly sees the golden bejeweled ring is magical and says to himself that such things aren't worth the trouble they bring and just leave it on the ground. I can scarcely imagine a D&D character behaving in a similar manner. I'd severely limit the access PCs had to magic in any S&S game I ran.
Conan knew he had better things to do with his time than hiking to Mount Doom with a short, rotund gardener.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Now, some people argue that levying a massive social penalty onto magic-using PCs is unfair, but I think it's something that you can cover in your Session 0 if not before.
A munchin is best off avoiding spellcasting classes entirely.

More mature players are thankful they get to play casters at all.

Veteran players realize that all magic comes with Fear and Domination built-in - for free...!

;)
 

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