Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

[Yora]

I'm sorry but your three core traits boil down to playing a murder hobo and that doesn't set S&S apart.

Again, as everyone else, you are welcome to prove me wrong.
If you have examples of stories that feel like Sword & Sorcery and that have protagonists who are well integrated and influential people in their society and its institutions, who feel obligate to a duty to the public or loyalty to a lord, and who make attempts to solve conflicts through diplomacy and peaceful means, or delegate the dirty work to others, then I'd really be happy to hear them.

Conan becomes king, but he's not accepted by the people. Fafhrd and Gray Mouser are self-absorbed leeches. Elric may have a crown, but is exiled from his Empire in everything but name. Kane is the boogyman.
Now Jirel can be assumed to be well respected and beloved as ruler of her domain, but all the stories take place away from her people so none of her status is of any use on her adventures. And she also descends alone into nightmarish realms with a sword in hand. I believe the same applies to Bran Mac Morn.

 

[pemerton]

That tension is always there but it can be mitigated by the GM sitting down with the players and discussing what they can expect in the campaign. But I'm looking at this almost entirely through the lens of Conan stories from Howard and Marvel Comics which I have to acknowledge is not the only way to look at it. So I'm coming at it from the perspective that the PCs goals won't necessarily be the same from session to session and with the successful conclusion of a long term goal representing the end of the campaign.

My perspective is also REH Conan and Marvel Conan. I've never read Leiber and haven't read much Moorcock.

That's why I think Kickers - probably fairly light-hearted ones - are a pretty good fit for S&S RPGing. They give a strong in media res framing with instant player buy in.

 

[pemerton]

I think Sword & Sorcery benefits particularly well from not having an expectation of what happens next.

<snip>

the more roguish and swashbuckling you get, the more desirable it becomes for the players to be able to completely throw everything they planned out of the window in the heat of the moment and do something drastically different.

<snip>

I think this should be possible, and the players understand that they have this option without making many hours of preparation completely pointless. And of course, in such situations, the GM should prepare material accordingly.

Agreed. That's why I'm pointing to systems and techniques that are strong in this respect.

In an early issue of Marvel's Savage Sword of Conan (1974), Conan runs into some cultist who got their hands on a magical ring that's still attached to the owner's hand. After dispatching the cultist, Conan clearly sees the golden bejeweled ring is magical and says to himself that such things aren't worth the trouble they bring and just leave it on the ground. I can scarcely imagine a D&D character behaving in a similar manner. I'd severely limit the access PCs had to magic in any S&S game I ran.

In RPGing this is, again, a system matter.

Eg in Marvel Heroic RP and fantasy hacks (Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy), getting a permanent benefit (eg from a magic ring) is one way to spend XP. If the player wants to spend XP a different way (eg boosting an existing ability) then s/he will have his/her PC leave the ring!

Or in a system with traits, taking the ring might inflict a difficult/undesirable trait and so the player chooses not to have his/her PC take it. (Burning Wheel can work like this.)

I think it's better to look at how the system can be made to yield the desired fiction via its own internal logic, then to make fixed assumptions about the system and then imagine imposing ad hoc limits.

 

[pemerton]

Conan becomes king, but he's not accepted by the people.

Yes he is! This is the whole theme of The Scarlet Citadel and The Hour of the Dragon!

Also, upthread @CapnZapp said that S&S doesn't involve moral heroes. But in most of the REH Conan stories Conan chooses to sacrifice his own self-interest (eg treasure he might take) to do the right thing as that is framed in the story (eg The Tower of the Elephant; Jewels of Gwahlur).

I know you don't want the thread to be about defining the S&S genre, and so I won't make this post too long. But as I see it the main contrast between S&S and JRRT-ish fantasy is that the former is modernist, even sometime existentialist - it presents the world as inherently lacking in value, and it is the action of the protagonists that imposes truth and meaning on the world - whereas JRRT-ish fantasy is conservative - it posits a world laden with meaning, and the path of heroism is identifying that meaning and having the faith and courage to act in accordance with it.

That's why paladins fit right into heroic fantasy - the hand of providence is ever-present! - whereas S&S only has magicians and evil high priests. (REH's Conan has the occasional hint of a beneficent priest of Isis or Mitra. I think if those hints were taken any further, it would undermine the basic ethos of the stories.)

 

[Dioltach]

I think perhaps another difference between S&S and heroic fantasy is that in the latter the heroes are trying to make the world a better place, whereas in S&S the heroes like it the way it is: they have the skills and abilities to thrive in such a world.

 

[Tonguez]

I think perhaps another difference between S&S and heroic fantasy is that in the latter the heroes are trying to make the world a better place, whereas in S&S the heroes like it the way it is: they have the skills and abilities to thrive in such a world.

in no way did Conan like the way things were, he just knew that the only way to change his circumstance was to take matters in to his own hands.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Could we please not have this discussion about how genres are defined in this thread? I really do appreciate the engagement, but the debate of what is Sword & Sorcery or not usually ends up burying every discussion that talks about Sword & Sorcery.
The topic here is how to prepare and run adventures that evoke a Sword & Sorcery feel.

So, to go more into how to run the scenario I put forth earlier, let’s imagine an adventure. The goal is to get better gear (the treasure), build your reputation as mercenary bards, and make contact with a potential ally and help her avoid assassination as she prepares for a honor duel where she either keeps her throne, or dies.

First you must go to the island of Charano, and contact an established ally and help her with a thing and get some goods in return. She is an old witchy countess of something similar who helped one of the group in their youth. Beautiful, dangerous, intelligent, and in command of her small domain. She has the secret of an old magic, a magic that sorcerers do not understand because it is of the land and the old ways before the gods had names.

Basically some social challenges (Conan interacts with a different culture, making friends and/or enemies), and then a reminder of just how weird and dangerous and unknowable magic is, as you make the PCs enter a shared dream state with the local villagers where they must battle faceless demons to protect the land from famine. If they go through with it, and survive, they gain a minor magic item and can talk thier way to being taught how to use this shared dream to communicate in each other’s minds (gaining basically the message cantrip s/day as a boon). If they win the battles, they don’t have to finagle or negotiate for the knowledge, and if a PC performs especially well, saves some villagers lives, etc, that PC might get a spear that looks like it’s made of bronze but that is hard as steel, and which is especially deadly to aberrations and fiends.

Next, the ally leads the group to a mountain pass in her domain where the meeting is to take place. Another social challenge, maybe an exploration challenge for getting there without spending a bunch of resources, and an ambush by assassins when you do arrive.

Treat the mountain passes and such like a dungeon, when the environment is very much part of the challenge. At the end of that segment, the ancient temple is revealed, the Priestesses of yhe God try to betray the Year Queen to consolidate thier power. Fight with some blood clerics and assassins and whatever they summon, while keeping the assassins from ganking your new (hopefully) ally, ending (if victorious) in a temple to loot, a new ally who assumes full control of her Queendom (with DM notes on how to expand on the corruption of civilization in S&S using her vicious removal of those who oppose here’s she has now deposed the previous (arguably worse) regime, and a village of harvesters who would love to benefit from your newfound wealth by providing all manner of services and companionship.

Notes for further play; what cost does the shared dream ritual have? Can the PCs get the villagers to agree to share that cost when the time comes? Will the Year Queen turned regular Queen remain an ally, and even if so will she remain herself long enough for her help to be a good thing? Will the countess demand a greater cost later on?

 

[Dioltach]

in no way did Conan like the way things were, he just knew that the only way to change his circumstance was to take matters in to his own hands.

Conan wasn't satisfied with his lot in life, but he knew that his world was one where he could rise to the top through strength of arms and force of personality. So yes, he was quite happy with the way the world worked. He wanted to change his position in it, but the world as such suited him just fine.

 

[pemerton]

Conan wasn't satisfied with his lot in life, but he knew that his world was one where he could rise to the top through strength of arms and force of personality. So yes, he was quite happy with the way the world worked. He wanted to change his position in it, but the world as such suited him just fine.

REH's Conan stories are full of criticisms of the Hyborian Age world, typically put into Conan's voice. See eg his monologue at the start of Queen of the Black Coast:

"By Crom, though I've spent considerable time among you civilized peoples, your ways are still beyond my comprehension.

"Well, last night in a tavern, a captain in the king's guard offered violence to the sweetheart of a young soldier, who naturally ran him through. But it seems there is some cursed law against killing guardsmen, and the boy and his girl fled away. It was bruited about that I was seen with them, and so today I was haled into court, and a judge asked me where the lad had gone. I replied that since he was a friend of mine, I could not betray him. Then the court waxed wroth, and the judge talked a great deal about my duty to the state, and society, and other things I did not understand, and bade me tell where my friend had flown. By this time I was becoming wrathful myself, for I had explained my position.

"But I choked my ire and held my peace, and the judge squalled that I had shown contempt for the court, and that I should be hurled into a dungeon to rot until I betrayed my friend. So then, seeing they were all mad, I drew my sword and cleft the judge's skull; then I cut my way out of the court, and seeing the high constable's stallion tied near by, I rode for the wharfs, where I thought to find a ship bound for foreign ports."​

 

[Dioltach]

REH's Conan stories are full of criticisms of the Hyborian Age world, typically put into Conan's voice. See eg his monologue at the start of Queen of the Black Coast:

"By Crom, though I've spent considerable time among you civilized peoples, your ways are still beyond my comprehension.​

​

"Well, last night in a tavern, a captain in the king's guard offered violence to the sweetheart of a young soldier, who naturally ran him through. But it seems there is some cursed law against killing guardsmen, and the boy and his girl fled away. It was bruited about that I was seen with them, and so today I was haled into court, and a judge asked me where the lad had gone. I replied that since he was a friend of mine, I could not betray him. Then the court waxed wroth, and the judge talked a great deal about my duty to the state, and society, and other things I did not understand, and bade me tell where my friend had flown. By this time I was becoming wrathful myself, for I had explained my position.​

​

"But I choked my ire and held my peace, and the judge squalled that I had shown contempt for the court, and that I should be hurled into a dungeon to rot until I betrayed my friend. So then, seeing they were all mad, I drew my sword and cleft the judge's skull; then I cut my way out of the court, and seeing the high constable's stallion tied near by, I rode for the wharfs, where I thought to find a ship bound for foreign ports."​

But he doesn't then go and try to change the world. Even though he disagrees with how things are done, he himself isn't affected by it: he can fight his way out of trouble. He doesn't worry about the common people who don't have his strength and who have to suffer the consequences of a corrupt system.