D&D 5E D&D Beyond Self-Censorship: Pride Month Digital Dice Blocked In Some Countries

[MGibster]

People intent on ideological purity don't often run businesses, and there are good reasons for that. For all those same reasons, it often happens that smaller groups of people working inside some company will find they cannot realistically do better than try to move the company's needle just a little farther toward their own best understanding of moral decency (and consensus on such understandings is no easy thing, either).

At my company, each month a committee selects a charity for us to donate money to with funds generated by employee's that are matched by management. A few years back, we selected a charity that assists young LGBTQ+ who are homeless and provides them with assistance. Most of them are good kids whose families have cut them off simply because their gay, trans, non-binary, etc., etc. I was so disappointed by the number of employees who emailed me with complaints that we gave to that charity because they "didn't agree" with them. It remains the only charity I've ever received complaints about. On the flip side, most of our employees were fine with the donation. Or at least fine enough not to bother writing me.

 

[Deset Gled]

I’ve been thinking about this for a bit, and I think I support WotC in their decision to not offer the Pride Dice in Turkey. Here’s my reasoning.

There are places where it’s definitely great to support LGBTQ rights. Unfortunately, there are also places where being homosexual (et al) is illegal, and supporting LGBTQ rights is simply not a realistic option for brands to endorse. And, more to the point, there are places that are gray areas; specific alternate lifestyles are not illegal, but it may be dangerous in multiple ways for people to be associated with LGBTQ culture.

Hasbro has a division in Turkey with ~20 employees. They also have a distribution chain and business associates there. If Hasbro has reason to believe that their employees (or anyone else related to the company) may come to harm because of association with LGBTQ rights, it’s morally preferable for them to not offer the dice and ensure that everyone is safe. If Hasbro has employees there that are closeted LGBTQ, it could be dangerous for them to work at a company flying the Pride Flag. It could be dangerous for retail workers at stores to sell D&D products if the brand is associated with LGBTQ pride. And if that’s the case, Hasbro is making the right choice. The main thing here to remember is that it’s not just the people at Hasbro HQ and the end user that will be affected, there are a lot of people in between that may also face consequences. Even in the case of a digital product.

Now, I will also admit I don’t have a clear understanding of how safe it is to be gay in Turkey. Accoring to Wikipedia, honor killings are still legal there. The second link I saw when I googled about it says “gay and transgender communities face a threat of violence and discrimination on a daily basis”. Maybe that’s out of date or blown out or proportion. I am absolutely not the person who should be making that call. But that’s why I am giving Hasbro the benefit of the doubt in this case; I’m assuming they know more than I do. I would be happy to learn more about what it's really like there to know if this reasoning makes sense.

 

[Umbran]

virtue signaling

Mod Note:
Time for you to go review the inclusivity policy. Dismissal as "virtue signaling" is not acceptable. Next time, please don't.

 

[Ondath]

I’ve been thinking about this for a bit, and I think I support WotC in their decision to not offer the Pride Dice in Turkey. Here’s my reasoning.

There are places where it’s definitely great to support LGBTQ rights. Unfortunately, there are also places where being homosexual (et al) is illegal, and supporting LGBTQ rights is simply not a realistic option for brands to endorse. And, more to the point, there are places that are gray areas; specific alternate lifestyles are not illegal, but it may be dangerous in multiple ways for people to be associated with LGBTQ culture.

Hasbro has a division in Turkey with ~20 employees. They also have a distribution chain and business associates there. If Hasbro has reason to believe that their employees (or anyone else related to the company) may come to harm because of association with LGBTQ rights, it’s morally preferable for them to not offer the dice and ensure that everyone is safe. If Hasbro has employees there that are closeted LGBTQ, it could be dangerous for them to work at a company flying the Pride Flag. It could be dangerous for retail workers at stores to sell D&D products if the brand is associated with LGBTQ pride. And if that’s the case, Hasbro is making the right choice. The main thing here to remember is that it’s not just the people at Hasbro HQ and the end user that will be affected, there are a lot of people in between that may also face consequences. Even in the case of a digital product.

Now, I will also admit I don’t have a clear understanding of how safe it is to be gay in Turkey. Accoring to Wikipedia, honor killings are still legal there. The second link I saw when I googled about it says “gay and transgender communities face a threat of violence and discrimination on a daily basis”. Maybe that’s out of date or blown out or proportion. I am absolutely not the person who should be making that call. But that’s why I am giving Hasbro the benefit of the doubt in this case; I’m assuming they know more than I do. I would be happy to learn more about what it's really like there to know if this reasoning makes sense.

Well, I can offer some facts from the ground to reconsider. While it is true that violence against LGBT people (in particular trans people) can happen, honour killings are a completely different matter that would not affect the majority in big urban centres (where I suppose the Hasbro employees would also live). Also to reiterate, there are vibrant LGBT communities in big cities, as well as civil organisations such as Kaos GL that actively advocate for LGBT people. My university (and several of the best universities in Turkey) have LGBT clubs that allow LGBT youth a safe space to get together. While the situation in Turkey for LGBT people is objectively worse than those in Western countries, it is not a status of total mortal danger, and there exist openly queer people that live their lives (albeit with difficulty). To be frank, painting the situation worse than it is smells of reducing Turkey to "one of those backwards Middle Eastern countries", and it is this generalisation that enrages me the most about the fact that Turkey was bundled up with other anti-LGBT countries despite there being no anti-LGBT legislation. It feels condescending.

Furthermore, this really overestimates the kind of danger Hasbro would put themselves in by, and I cannot stress this enough, just offering virtual rainbow-coloured dice on a website in English. D&D is not that big in Turkey (most people can't afford to buy anything from D&D Beyond due to volatile and ever-increasing exchange rates, but that's a discussion for a different day, and TTRPGs are an extremely niche hobby), and this can be documented by the fact that this region lock was not realised until I randomly decided to claim my dice 4 days after they were offered. The chances of anti-LGBT groups noticing this and making a big fuss about it were extremely, extremely slim. Even companies with much bigger audiences in Turkey, who are genuinely targeted for the support for the LGBT community they express make their LGBT-friendly content available. As I said, Netflix shows such as Sense8, Orange is the New Black, Heartstopper and Sex Education are available with no censorship on Netflix (and this despite Netflix actually having a policy of removing LGBT-friendly content in countries where they would be in hot water such as Saudi Arabia), and League of Legends, by far the biggest e-sports game in Turkey, at least makes its Pride content available under plausible deniability. To think Hasbro would risk anything substantial when bigger companies can show their support to the LGBT community with far less issues shows that these worries are unfounded.

If anything, I'd wager that the decision was made not from Hasbro's Turkey divison, but by executives who know nothing about Turkey and decided to play it safe because they just assumed it's no different than the rest of the Middle East. Which, once again, not only discourages progressive people in Turkey, but just gives further ammunition to regressive actors who can see with glee that companies that supposedly defend some values can bend over backwards without them doing anything.

 

[beancounter]

I'm sure WoTC's reasoning was purly economic.

I got the dice and tried them out. The rolls resulted in some visual "errors". They aren't that great.

 

[Deset Gled]

Well, I can offer some facts from the ground to reconsider. While it is true that violence against LGBT people (in particular trans people) can happen, honour killings are a completely different matter that would not affect the majority in big urban centres (where I suppose the Hasbro employees would also live). Also to reiterate, there are vibrant LGBT communities in big cities, as well as civil organisations such as Kaos GL that actively advocate for LGBT people. My university (and several of the best universities in Turkey) have LGBT clubs that allow LGBT youth a safe space to get together. While the situation in Turkey for LGBT people is objectively worse than those in Western countries, it is not a status of total mortal danger, and there exist openly queer people that live their lives (albeit with difficulty).

So, if you're open to discussing it, what is the legality of honour killings? Is it legal on a region-by-region basis, like how different states have different laws in the US?

Google says that Hasbro Turkey is in Beylerbeyi, Istanbul. Is that an area that's friendlier to LGBT people? Openly, the idea that universities need to designate "safe spaces" for LGBT people makes it sound a bit like the surrounding area is more dangerous. What kind of difficulties would you describe LGBT people facing on a daily basis?

Furthermore, this really overestimates the kind of danger Hasbro would put themselves in by, and I cannot stress this enough, just offering virtual rainbow-coloured dice on a website in English.

One thing that I will disagree with you on is the triviality of the pride dice being a virtual product. IMNSHO, the issue is in the promotion of the idea, not the physical nature of the product being sold. Being virtual does cut down on the number of hands needed to pass it through the supply chain, so I'll admit it helps minimize any risk to other employees that aren't involved. But it's still a good that's being traded. After all, if being virtual made it meaningless, then we wouldn't even be discussing it here.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm sure WoTC's reasoning was purly economic.

That is the problem, yes.

 

[Deset Gled]

I'm sure WoTC's reasoning was purly economic.

It's a free download, though. What's the actual, numeric economic impact of whether or not it's available in Turkey? IMNSHO, the economic reasons are quite minimal, which is part of why I was thinking employee safety may have been a factor.

 

[Ondath]

<Scrubbed the bit about honour killings since that's outside the thread's scope.>

Google says that Hasbro Turkey is in Beylerbeyi, Istanbul. Is that an area that's friendlier to LGBT people? Openly, the idea that universities need to designate "safe spaces" for LGBT people makes it sound a bit like the surrounding area is more dangerous. What kind of difficulties would you describe LGBT people facing on a daily basis?

Istanbul as a (quasi-)ecumenopolis has all sorts of people you can imagine. Beylerbeyi itself is not particularly safe or dangerous for LGBT people AFAIK - it's not an extremely conservative neighbourhood, but it's not the most progressive either. I've never heard of anyone protesting a company's headquarters for LGBT allyship, though. Even Netflix (who have their offices in Şişli, a big business district that's more progressive, admittedly) has never had its offices in danger despite constant targeting by conservative media in Turkey.

As for the safe spaces comment, perhaps I used the wrong expression. What I meant was that LGBT clubs in universities are allowed in Turkish universities, and these clubs are often politically engaged. Our university's LGBT club regularly organises events like seminars on HIV awareness, Day of Transgender Visibility and things like that (our Fantasy & Sci-Fi club actually co-organised an event on LGBT representation in sci-fi and movies with them, and as the club president I'm particularly proud of that one). They even held a pride walk inside the campus without any tensions (though admittedly that's not the case everywhere else, another big university's pride walk will be held in two days, but the university administration is adamant that they will not allow it). All in all, while overly conservative communities in Turkey might be quite hostile to LGBT people (and these hostilities do make the life of LGBT people very difficult, especially when the hostile people are among their family members), there are plenty of spaces and environments where LGBT people can and do exist with relative peace in Turkey. Which is really not the kind of picture you'd expect from a country where Hasbro/WotC/D&D Beyond is so worried that they decided to block special dice commemorating Pride Month.

 

[beancounter]

It's a free download, though. What's the actual, numeric economic impact of whether or not it's available in Turkey? IMNSHO, the economic reasons are quite minimal, which is part of why I was thinking employee safety may have been a factor.

Economic in the sense of how it might impact future sales of their other products in Turkey.