How would one show a Corolla is well designed? What evidence would you cite? I would cite comparative sales/popularity, comparative reliability ratings, comparative price, and any important awards it won.You saying that 5e is good, simply means you like it. It does not mean that it is well designed. If you mean that it is well designed, then provide examples where you think that it is well designed and SAY that you think it is well designed. Simply saying "5e is good" doesn't mean anything. It just means you like it.
How would one show a Corolla is well designed? What evidence would you cite? I would cite comparative sales/popularity, comparative reliability ratings, comparative price, and any important awards it won.
How would one show a BMW is well designed? I'd primarily look at comparative technical specs.
Is D&D 5e the Corolla or the BMW?
That depends on your perspective. Aren’t all games ultimately taking their players to a good time?I am not a fan of the car analogy. It assumes that different games are substitutes. That one might get you there faster, but that the other is more reliable. That's not how this fundamentally works. Different games get you to different destinations.
That depends on your perspective. Aren’t all games ultimately taking their players to a good time?
As there would be taking different sorts of car. A trip to a good time is going to be different in a convertible, a sports car, a Yugo...That would work if everyone's sense of what makes a good time was the same. But its more like "taking to a person's favorite vacation spot"; there may be many overlaps, but there's also going to be quite a bit of variety.
Comparative sales doesn't really apply to well designed, because you have to detail the reason for a particular design. The statement must always be "well designed TO ((Insert design goal here))". That's the problem. People want to skip over the detail part because that's harder to articulate and requires actual knowledge rather than just "Well because I like it".How would one show a Corolla is well designed? What evidence would you cite? I would cite comparative sales/popularity, comparative reliability ratings, comparative price, and any important awards it won.
How would one show a BMW is well designed? I'd primarily look at comparative technical specs.
Is D&D 5e the Corolla or the BMW?
Which would be fine @Oofta except that you’ve repeatedly argued against changes based on things being “good” now. And your justification for them being good is because they are popular and you like them.
Your insistence that judgements of quality are subjective is the main point of contention.
This reminded me of Dworkin's take on Law. He says in one place "Law is an interpretive concept. Judges should decide what the law is by interpreting the practice off other judges deciding what the law is. General theories of law, for us, are general interpretations of our own judicial practice." Later he offers a different perspective "Law's empire is defined by attitude, not territory or power or process."And that's why I make essays like this. Because understanding why D&D is deigned the way it is ... understanding the decisions that go into it, understanding what makes it popular ... that's interesting!
To make a game that appeals to a few people- to make a game that is the bestest and greatest game ever for a small group of people for a short period of time ... that's not easy, but it's not hard either. But once you have to start making compromises to your own vision ... once you realize that this is a game that has to be in a conversation with both the future and the past, a game that has to appeal to both the hardcore crunch and the hardcore lore people, a game that has to be mini-ready AND playable as ToTM, a game that has to have relatively complete rules but also be easily hackable ... that makes for fascinating design!
To me, that's the interesting conversation that a lot of people don't want to have. I hear you when you write, And then you have edition wars and D&D players who fight even more than they do about other systems. Yeah, they do. And it sucks. Because fandom has a toxic side. But that's the whole thing- D&D is the only system that has people arguing about editions, about rules, that has people (like me) posting histories of the use of the scimitar for the druid class; it is a game and an ecosystem. Which is why I keep getting back to the point that it's not just about the system. There are plenty of games out there that provide better and bespoke systems for certain uses, but to concentrate on the rules alone, to ignore the history, the community, the norms, the massive amount of homebrew and 3PP, the lore, the ... the EVERYTHING associated with D&D? When you do that, you miss what D&D is.
IMO. And it is my opinion because I've written a fair amount about the topic.