Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[OB1]

@Galandris you're right, I was being too hasty blaming a production exec. Just took a look back at episodes 5, 6, and 7 for some context.

Episode 5 - Good shots of the ships. Shows around 40 soldiers standing above deck with plenty of room to spare. Also shows the stables below decks, and what appears to be 10 stalls in perhaps a third of the length of the ship at water level. Unknown if there is a third deck below the stables.
Episode 6 - The charge actually consists of 130-150 or so cavalry by my count. So about 40-50 cavalry per ship.
Episode 7 - Clearly shows the ships leaving from the base camp of the Numenorian's by river, which in turn was walking distance from the location of the attack (so no charge across thousands of miles).

At most, the issue may have been a practical one, with the ships in the show possibly 20-30% smaller than strictly necessary to cover the number of troops and horses seen in the charge, and was likely due to either sound stage or budget restrictions.

As for Numenor getting upset about such a small number of troops going. The issue there, IMO, is not the number, but the fact that they are going to help an elf at all. And small, expeditionary forces have a tendency to result in much larger conflicts.

 

[Rabulias]

Maybe I am misremembering, but after the big battle with the horses, didn't they go over a nearby hill and see the boats anchored in a river? I took that as they had sailed the boats up-river to be closer to the southlands.

You are correct. They even mention this earlier in the series when Miriel requests a status report and the response mentions sailing upriver to reach inland.

 

[Maxperson]

My issue with this visual is that sending five ship sounded like a big issue with Numenor, more like expeditionary force (but not mass mobilization) than coast guard operation. Their head of state oversaw the operation personnally, after interpreting that the operation was a do-or-die thing with the tree losing its petals when she considered not to go. And the result is... Five ships, reduced to three by a little harbour fire. While I can accept the scale to be changed compared to the books (even if I prefer, wherever possible to keep consistency with other sources), it will break my suspension of disbelief if they send more than 20 ships against Sauron or 30 or so for the great armament... I accept they don't make Numenor the superpower it is supposed to be at the end of the Second Age like in the books, since they are doing a different show, but if they show that it is 1% of Athens at Salamine times, then it set the scales for the near future ability of Numenor.

You postulates that the "big army" of 300 horseman was added later because the scenes weren't epic enough for a higher executive. I don't buy it because if it was really intended to be 3 ships with a few warriors, it would be a routine operation for the country, not something the general population would notice (many countries sent ships to patrol against pirates along the coast of Somalia, and noone in the contributing countries noticed...) and which presents no "existential threat".

I very much liked the artistic presentation of those ships, though.

Sauron had tens of thousands of orcs and when Numenor showed up he just surrendered because he knew he had no chance. If you figure 10 or 20 horse on a ship and infantry, they would have needed enough ships to get tens of thousands(at least) of Numenoreans to shore. That many sails would have dotted the sea in white, and certainly would have been more than 5

Now, that was the book and I have no idea if it will be on that scale in the show once the One Ring is created, or if they will even have it happen at all since they've already changed things so much.

 

[Maxperson]

@Galandris you're right, I was being too hasty blaming a production exec. Just took a look back at episodes 5, 6, and 7 for some context.

Episode 5 - Good shots of the ships. Shows around 40 soldiers standing above deck with plenty of room to spare. Also shows the stables below decks, and what appears to be 10 stalls in perhaps a third of the length of the ship at water level. Unknown if there is a third deck below the stables.
Episode 6 - The charge actually consists of 130-150 or so cavalry by my count. So about 40-50 cavalry per ship.
Episode 7 - Clearly shows the ships leaving from the base camp of the Numenorian's by river, which in turn was walking distance from the location of the attack (so no charge across thousands of miles).

At most, the issue may have been a practical one, with the ships in the show possibly 20-30% smaller than strictly necessary to cover the number of troops and horses seen in the charge, and was likely due to either sound stage or budget restrictions.

As for Numenor getting upset about such a small number of troops going. The issue there, IMO, is not the number, but the fact that they are going to help an elf at all. And small, expeditionary forces have a tendency to result in much larger conflicts.

Horses eat 20 pounds of hay or oats a day. 50 horses in that ship means 1000 pounds of food per day of travel each way, and it is multiple days to get to the coast of Middle Earth from Numenor. It took about 25 days to sail 3000 miles and the estimate for Numenor is 1600-1900 miles off the coast of Middle Earth. So about two weeks of sailing. That's 28000 pounds of food on the ship for a round trip just for the horses, and all the space that takes. Now you need to feed the men, store their armor and weapons, store saddles and saddle bags, etc. Those small ships can't do 50 horses plus supplies.

 

[OB1]

@Maxperson Okay so that's 12 Tons of Horses and 14 Tons of food for a total of 26 tons. Add in 50 humans (1 ton), gear and food (2 tons max) and we're at 30. A small Caravel (which is the closest comparison I can find to the Numenor ships) had a capacity of 40-50 tons. And the ships we see really look more like short clippers (which are faster and have more cargo weight capacity) than a Caravel.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

At most, the issue may have been a practical one, with the ships in the show possibly 20-30% smaller than strictly necessary to cover the number of troops and horses seen in the charge, and was likely due to either sound stage or budget restrictions.

They also forgot about the logistics (everyone does...)

As for Numenor getting upset about such a small number of troops going. The issue there, IMO, is not the number, but the fact that they are going to help an elf at all. And small, expeditionary forces have a tendency to result in much larger conflicts.

Elendil is saying that he's having more volunteers that they can put on the ships, despite that [and "helping the elf" is probably the reason that decided Miriel, but it's not the one used as the justification of protecting humans in ME. It is explained clearly by Ar-Pharazôn to his son: the flow of the river is with her (confirming that there is broad support for her endeavour), and he supports the war because saving the lesser men of Middle Earth to set up a puppet king in the Southlands and benefit hugely from trade and tributes. Only his son (presented as young and stupid) doesn't understand that and he's teaching him politics in this scene (and failing to do so since the son will go afterwards burn 40% of the numenorean fleet). The Kings' Men are presented as pro-expedition and pro-war because of their colonial ambitions in the show, who happen to coincidate with the "help the elf" motivation of Miriel.

I don't share your position of a lack of support making it difficult to send more troops as an explanation for the small fleet size. Even I were, I'd accept that 300 horsemen is the max they can afford politically... but why not simply replace the two burned ship if it was the case?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Sauron had tens of thousands of orcs and when Numenor showed up he just surrendered because he knew he had no chance. If you figure 10 or 20 horse on a ship and infantry, they would have needed enough ships to get tens of thousands(at least) of Numenoreans to shore. That many sails would have dotted the sea in white, and certainly would have been more than 5

Now, that was the book and I have no idea if it will be on that scale in the show once the One Ring is created, or if they will even have it happen at all since they've already changed things so much.

Tolkien gives the impression that the Numenorean fleet was huge, even before the Great Armament, and made up of enormous ships; so large, that the havens of Lindon were unable to accommodate their draft. The deforestation of Eriador was largely due to the needs of Numenor's fleet. Pharazon's ship, Alcorandas was "many-oared and many-masted," and if the fleet of Umbar in the Third Age is anything to go by, the dromond - a huge, fast Byzantine war-galley - seems to be the basic design. Constantine VII's ship had 230 rowers; the Numenorean ships might have been far larger - I can't think of any medieval ship with "many" masts (how many is "many?" - 6? 8? 10?).

In the Nature of Middle-Earth Tolkien places the population of Numenor at around 15 million before the downfall, and Pharazon bringing 100,000 men to Middle-Earth seems entirely reasonable. Numenor was a superpower.

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson Okay so that's 12 Tons of Horses and 14 Tons of food for a total of 26 tons. Add in 50 humans (1 ton), gear and food (2 tons max) and we're at 30. A small Caravel (which is the closest comparison I can find to the Numenor ships) had a capacity of 40-50 tons. And the ships we see really look more like short clippers (which are faster and have more cargo weight capacity) than a Caravel.

Yeah, but it doesn't work that way when carrying horses. Horses take up a lot of space. Those stalls that the horses stand in + the horses themselves takes up many tons worth of space that would otherwise be used to stack tons of goods. You don't get anywhere near 40-50 tons of carrying capacity on a caravel if you have horses. A tarida was a bit longer than a caravel and could carry 20-30 horses. That's what they put on it.

Those Numenorean ships could carry the horses or men, but not both.

 

[Maxperson]

Tolkien gives the impression that the Numenorean fleet was huge, even before the Great Armament, and made up of enormous ships; so large, that the havens of Lindon were unable to accommodate their draft. The deforestation of Eriador was largely due to the needs of Numenor's fleet. Pharazon's ship, Alcorandas was "many-oared and many-masted," and if the fleet of Umbar in the Third Age is anything to go by, the dromond - a huge, fast Byzantine war-galley - seems to be the basic design. Constantine VII's ship had 230 rowers; the Numenorean ships might have been far larger - I can't think of any medieval ship with "many" masts (how many is "many?" - 6? 8? 10?).

In the Nature of Middle-Earth Tolkien places the population of Numenor at around 15 million before the downfall, and Pharazon bringing 100,000 men to Middle-Earth seems entirely reasonable. Numenor was a superpower.

Yep. But not on three small ships. I paused the charge of the Numenoreans over the hill and there were at least 300 horses. That's 100+ horses per small ship. LOL

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Yep. But not on three small ships. I paused the charge of the Numenoreans over the hill and there were at least 300 horses. That's 100+ horses per small ship. LOL

Miriel originally intended to send 500 men on 5 ships, before 2 were burned, so 300 would make sense. It's a shame the showrunners didn't exhibit, enormous, breathtaking ships (missing an opportunity for a visual spectacle and emphasizing Numenor's technology); or have a larger number of smaller ships, with some acting as dedicated transports for the horses (missing an opportunity for coherent drama stemming from their possible separation/loss).

As to your general observations about transporting heavy cavalry by ocean - yes. It would be a logistical nightmare and very resource-intense. When William the Conqueror invaded, he had 2000 cavalry and 5000 infantry. And around 800 ships. And Belegaer is rather wider than the English Channel.