Dragonlance Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs On Krynn

Talking to the Dragonlance Nexus, Dragonlance creators Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman revealed why the world of Krynn features no orcs -- in short, because they didn't want to copy Tolkien, and orcs were very much a 'Middle Earth' thing.

Weis told Trampas Whiteman that "Orcs were also viewed as very Middle Earth. We wanted something different." Hickman added that it was draconians which made Krynn stand out. Read more at the link below!

Why are there no Orcs in Krynn? Weis and Hickman give us the answer! - Dragonlance Nexus

Dragonhelm gets the scoop from Weis and Hickman on why there are no orcs in Krynn. Read More

dragonlancenexus.com

 

[mamba]

Tell that to Max, whom I was quoting.

yeah, he had one 'not' too many in his sentence for it to make sense

They took Tolkienesque elves, even took some of Tolkien's ideas for elves, but didn't take their origin story. Why couldn't they have taken Tolkienesque orcs but not taken their origin story?

They could have, they did not want to

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, for me. Of course. Canon should, in my opinion, serve the game. So it really depends.

My point is not so much about the orcs as it is about the setting and what it does and what makes it interesting. Honestly, orcs, or their absence, have nothing to do with that.

And my point is that what's important to the feel of the campaign is a case by case decision. Orcs have a lot to do with it for apparently a lot of people.

If they’re added with the new DL material, I just don’t see an issue. If a player played a half-orc or an orc, or just about any other race, I don’t see how it impacts the setting in any way.

As I've said a few times now, if a player wanted to play one of those in a Dragonlance game that I was running, I'd let him be one from some other world. Krynn, though, would remain orcless as a whole. Just because you don't see how it impacts the setting, doesn't mean that it does not impact it for people.

Again, my point was about how people sometimes latch onto very minor things when it comes to settings.

Calling people's valid feelings about the subject "latching onto very minor things" is very dismissive and inappropriate.

 

[Maxperson]

yeah, he had one 'not' too many in his sentence for it to make sense

I never claimed orcs were the main distinguishing feature, though. That was a Strawman of my argument that @Faolyn constructed.

 

[Faolyn]

No orcs and all of the rest generic isn't Krynn.

To mamba, you said:

I never claimed orcs were the main distinguishing feature, though. That was a Strawman of my argument that @Faolyn constructed.

So which is it? No orcs is a main distinguishing feature that makes it a non-generic world, or it's not a main distinguishing feature?

It isn't. But it is one thing that helps.

So what are they, then? I keep asking people what makes it so special and don't get any answers.

And nothing says Gothic Horror like, "A rabbit, a turtle and a cat walk into a bar!"

Gothic horror is personal horror, horror caused by unnatural evils, set against unending bleakness from which there is no escape. If you can't make a gothic horror story with a rabbit, a turtle, and a cat as the PCs, then that's on you. I know I could.

Yes it would still be post-apocalyptic. No it wouldn't feel like the Dark Sun we know. It would be a different post-apocalyptic setting.

No, it would be Dark Sun, but with one extra race.

There's a fallacy there, but I'm too tired to look for it. Instead I'll just point out that you are wrong. Since lack of orcs is part of the uniqueness, it's an error to assume that it shouldn't matter if you add them in. The setting won't fall apart, but it will feel different.

So yeah, you think Dragonlance is such a weak setting that the addition of one other race will ruin it.

 

[Maxperson]

So which is it? No orcs is a main distinguishing feature that makes it a non-generic world, or it's not a main distinguishing feature?

And now a False Dichotomy. I will repeat what I told you earlier. It's a feature that is unique, which is better than nothing.

So what are they, then? I keep asking people what makes it so special and don't get any answers.

What are what? Lack of orcs makes it different than worlds with orcs, which at this point is every other setting that didn't come over from MtG.

Gothic horror is personal horror, horror caused by unnatural evils, set against unending bleakness from which there is no escape. If you can't make a gothic horror story with a rabbit, a turtle, and a cat as the PCs, then that's on you. I know I could.

It would be a lot harder than with three humans.

No, it would be Dark Sun, but with one extra race.

Add the race of martians to Earth as of 10,000 years ago and still living here today and Earth would be a very, very, VERY different setting than the one we live in.

So yeah, you think Dragonlance is such a weak setting that the addition of one other race will ruin it.

Since you seemed to miss it in the quote of mine directly above this response, I'll put it here. I'm going to assume that you missed it rather than deliberately skipped it in order to twist my argument again.

"The setting won't fall apart, but it will feel different."

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So how is Krynn better than #471?

Settings aren't required to be better, only different.

Because if the only thing that makes Dragonlance non-generic setting #471 is the lack of orcs, then hate to break it to you--it's a generic setting.

Strawman. The lack of orcs isn't the only thing that makes Dragonlance different. It's symptomatic of a world that is dominated by humans and natural beasts, and when the few monsters do appear, it's in the direct service of Evil.

Ravenloft would still be a land of Gothic Horror even if every race was as common there as they are in Faerun, because that setting's draw isn't the lack of non-human races; it's the Gothic Horror.

So what? Things can be different in different ways.

Having it be a setting where humans are dominant is only a side-effect of the types of stories it was based on. Dark Sun would still be a post-apocalypse world of magical desolation and desperation if there were orcs there as a main race, because orcs would simply be a different race in the arenas.

You want to see things go REALLY NUCLEAR?! Try putting generic fantasyland creatures into Dark Sun and watch the fan reaction! You aint seen nothing yet!

 

[EzekielRaiden]

not sure where you are getting this from "We wanted something different." sounds not very objective at all

see above, and also "We needed our own enemy. Draconians not only made our world unique but quickly became an important and deep diegetic pillar of Krynn.”

well, that is what they said. Note esp. “We had goblins for the soldiers”

So I take it you are now ok with excluding orcs

As with the others, your flippancy and condescension do not help your case. It would be really nice if you actually engaged with what I had to say instead of ignoring it and making fun of me.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

They took Tolkienesque elves, even took some of Tolkien's ideas for elves, but didn't take their origin story. Why couldn't they have taken Tolkienesque orcs but not taken their origin story?

Exactly this. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Minigiant]

One interesting thing about Dragonlace's use of goblins and lack of orcs is how it removes the "nearby enemy"

D&D traditionally uses goblins and orcs as the first and closest nearby threat. By banning orcs and making goblins nomadic or home in their own country, there is no real "close humaniod nonhuman threat" at the edge of the forest unless the DM forces it.

Sure it wasn't Weiss and Hickman's intention but it works with the War and High/Epic Fantasy theme very well.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

They took Tolkienesque elves, even took some of Tolkien's ideas for elves, but didn't take their origin story. Why couldn't they have taken Tolkienesque orcs but not taken their origin story?

Because elves are popular, and orcs are boring.