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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The Venn Diagram between
- WotC should make hybrid races like Level Up or Ancestries & Cultures or Black Flag
and
- WotC shouldn't copy other companies

Is a circle.
The fact that three other companies have come up with better ways to handle it than what WotC decided on is proof that there are better ways, and probably more than those three.
 


Plenty of fans of Level Up, with far less marketing power behind it. Where's the evidence that people actually want a simpler game?
Here, I want simpler. It's the main reason I won't adopt Level Up. I'm glad it's there for those who want it. But I don't.
PDFs are in the middle somewhere. Yes I might technically own the material and have it stored in my computer, but I still don't truly "own" it in that there are still major obstacles to my at-will use of it: I can't access it unless I'm sitting at my computer, I can't access it if there's no power, and I can't use it like I can a book until-unless I pay again* to print it out.
This is... a very flawed...
You are saying you don't own a PDF because it relies upon you have a computer and power. Well then, you don't own a car either, because it requires tires and gas/fuel or it's useless. Apparently, you want something physical in order to feel you own it. That's understandable, but I don't think that's a very reasonable view of ownership. I'm not very good with stating analogies, but I think others could easily point out things that are "owned" but have dubious physical possession to go along with it.
 

Autumnal

Bruce Baugh, Writer of Fortune
Plenty of fans of Level Up, with far less marketing power behind it. Where's the evidence that people actually want a simpler game?
The enthusiasm for Shadowdark, for starters - most of a million bucks in its Kickstarter so far. Because…
Different audiences.
This. Some people are fine with 5e detail levels, some want more, and some want less. All at the same time, because they’re different people. (Or people with different moods, like the folks who happily play both Lancer and Over The Edge.)
 




EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Mostly the people I know consider 5E spooking arcane and complex...the people who play it.

The room in the market on the simpler side is likely much larger, and I think that trying to be more complex than D&D is a common mistake on the TTRPG industry.
There is a difference between these two things:

"Remove everything from the game which takes time to learn."

"Improve the game so that the things in it are easier to learn."

Unfortunately, many MANY game designers today (not just in D&D/tabletop, but in video games as well) do not act as though they understand the difference between these things. They flatten all differences and remove all potential for depth, because that's the most efficient way to make a game easy to learn: make it trivial to learn.

But when a game prioritizes simplicity over all else--when its design becomes reductionist über alles--it necessarily gives up the things that give people a reason to want to stay. Simplicity alone is not better than complexity alone. What is required is depth, which is (always!) difficult to design. Systems that are easy to learn, but difficult to master. Systems that are approachable for the apprentice and challenging for the journeyman and engaging for the master.

We don't need "simpler" games. We need approachable games. Games that lure you in with easy, fast options, and then pull you just a bit further with a cool other thing that, now that you're invested in the easy stuff, sounds worthwhile to investigate. And then another. And another. And another. Until you've been playing for six years and know the system back to front because you wanted to learn it, not because learning it was the prerequisite for joining.

This is why I have always, ALWAYS advocated for the addition of a really, truly SIMPLE caster class. And the addition of a really, truly deep (not just complex, because complexity merely for its own sake is bad) non-magical class. An actually simple caster class would make it so much easier for new players to get into the game, lowering barriers, while also adding the appeal of "well...if this is fun, what are the other casters like...?" And, likewise, having an actually, genuinely deep non-magical class would give folks who love Fighter characters but find the Fighter kind of dull (because...it is, by design, as lamented by Mearls himself) an opportunity to do something more engaging and intricate.

It's also why we should bring back some of the innovations of 4e. E.g., return to having static defenses instead of saving throws.* That rule change is one of the rare cases where making the system simpler ADDS depth, rather than removing it. Having all offensive actions be attacks means that support characters can now be made that equally benefit all other characters, regardless of how they contribute to combat. This makes the game overall more accessible (fewer things to remember, faster play) and gives an inroad for players who really love the idea of being supportive to their allies but who are bored to tears by the "Brother Bactine" stuff that tends to be how support characters get pigeonholed in D&D.

We absolutely, totally should go through and trim down a lot of the cruft in D&D. We should pore over it and identify the places where the rules, as they are, act as an impediment to getting into the game, and find ways to achieve very similar levels of nuance, but with less convoluted rules. Ideally, we should couple this with actual testing: work, with actual educators and with interested brand-new players, to find alternatives that are testably easier to learn while preserving whatever nuance we can in so doing. The problem is, most of the time, people are hyper-protective of the parts of D&D that are especially crufty and forbidding to newcomers, and instead attack perfectly benign or even helpful elements that are simply newer than the incredibly recondite stuff they've grown accustomed to.

* And TBH return to the old 3-save/defense system, rather than 6. It was a neat idea, but in practice it is kinda flawed, and adds a lot of complexity but very little nuance/depth. 4e's "best out of 2 stats" format was a good middle-ground between 3e and 5e on that front, since it preserves the "Strength and Con can be important" while cutting the number of things you have to remember in half.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I'd be perfectly fine with the "Mixed Ancestry" species gaining two mechanics from one species and two from the other to create a so-called "unique" mechanical make-up for this mixed character. Because quite frankly all the species mechanics are so blah and unimpressive anyways that the idea that anyone could actual "maximize" the selection to make something "overpowered" with species mechanics is laughable in my opinion.

At best you get four piddly little mechanics that are subsumed underneath mounds and mounds of class mechanics... barely getting used because characters are using all the crap their classes give them... or being so inconsequential that they couldn't represent anything of an actual species if it tried. Which of course is also why I don't think the game suffers if they DON'T put species feature mixing and matching in the 2024E PHB (or especially why half-elves and half-orcs have to have their own unique species write-up and mechanics in the book.)

"My dwarf can't feel like a dwarf unless I have double proficiency in History to identify rocks!"

"Oh really? I guess that means my Human Bard must feel like a dwarf then, cause that's the exact same mechanic I have. Apparently your dwarf ain't much of a dwarf if my Human does exactly what you do... and in fact does it better, because I get double proficiency in History to EVERYTHING related to dwarf culture, not just stonework. I guess I'm even a better dwarf than you are!"

"If I can't have proficiency in Perception, my elf can't be an elf!"

"I guess every single member of the party must be elves then, because we ALL took proficiency in Perception."

As far as I'm concerned... this is precisely why none of the mechanics for mixed ancestries should ever be considered a big deal or at all important. Because they do practically nothing that isn't doubled up by any number of other class or game features that do the same mechanical things. So they do not actually distinguish these species as individual things at all.

Your gnome PC will feel like a gnome PC because you roleplayed it like a gnome, not because you received a Minor Illusion cantrip that you wrote on your character sheet that you never actually use because there are two other party members that have even better illusion spells then you do.
 
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