On "Illusionism" (+)

Celebrim

Legend
I'm not sure use of the term "illusionism" helps the discussion. Why not describe what the GM is doing directly: Removing player agency.

Because there are a lot of ways to remove player agency. This is why I linked to my previous essay on railroading techniques. Illusionism is just one subset of how you would go about keeping the game on the rails and thus limiting player agency.

Also, the example of "The Color of Money" is not on point. While Eddie was deceived, that was more because he misunderstands the nature of the game.

Playing a game when you are deceived and misunderstand the nature of the game is exactly how I defined Illusionism. So, that does make the example very much on point.

In contests, one is advised to distrust any information that is provided by the opponent. One must gather their own intelligence.

The GM isn't normally the "opponent" in most healthy tables.

As to the main question: I've found removal of agency to be harmful to my enjoyment of game play. The more the GM adjusts what is happening the more I disbelieve my agency. My engagement lessens. Victories feel hollow.

Agreed.
 

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tomBitonti

Adventurer
Because there are a lot of ways to remove player agency. This is why I linked to my previous essay on railroading techniques. Illusionism is just one subset of how you would go about keeping the game on the rails and thus limiting player agency.

Playing a game when you are deceived and misunderstand the nature of the game is exactly how I defined Illusionism. So, that does make the example very much on point.

The GM isn't normally the "opponent" in most healthy tables.

Agreed.

Ah, the deception (of Eddie) seems more a self-deception. Certainly, Vincent is presenting false information. But Vincent is the opponent. Eddie should not trust any information provided by Vincent. It's not Vincent's problem that Eddie is looking for a different sort of game. (Note: my comment re: "opponents" was directed more to understanding "The Color of Money, not to understand GM activities.)

On further consideration, I think I missed a part of the essence of "illusionism": One part is changing what happens in-game to convert player decisions to the plot planned out by the GM. That part can be described as removing player agency. However, another part is changing the results generated by the game system, with the same intent: To ensure that the flow of play follows a plot which was predetermined by the GM. That second part is not removing player agency. I'm not sure what to call it, perhaps, removing agency from the game mechanics.

One special case is undoing certain effects: A one-in-a-thousand critical which caused a player death. A TPK caused by a string of exceptionally bad luck. A GM miscalculation. Examples from games that I've played: Throwing 20+ harpies at a party while not understanding the harpy charm saving throw mechanic. Hitting the party with a heightened 3.5E blasphemy. Putting shadows in murky water that the players are wading through. Hitting an injured party with a maximized fireball. Generally, to erase unanticipated TPKs or player deaths. I'm not sure this specific case fits under the term. These cases feel more of a deficiency of the game system. I know some folks dial back criticals because they introduce too many unpredictable deaths.

TomB

TomB
 

Celebrim

Legend
This helped crystalize some of my thoughts on this. You're essentially making a case for GMing as a profession, with the same slightly murky blend of professional standards/responsibilities we expected from certain experts, like doctors or lawyers. There is a set of ethics and a wide variety of available tools, but fundamentally the role rests in a person and not a system, such that an individual must inhabit the function and make decisions that best serve the table.

Since most of us don't get paid, I tend to not look at things in terms of professional ethics but I admit that they generally apply. I do look at being a GM very much as an artistic endeavor that combines a lot of different skills and which people who undertake it should be undertaking with the idea of getting good at it the same way a hobbyist of almost any other sort - basketball player, carpenter, guitar player, video gamer - is striving to improve their craft for the pleasure of doing that.

In terms of ethics, my axiom is "Be the GM that you would want to have if you were a player", or if you like, "Be the GM your players would want to have."

I think that's the distinction I've increasingly found...uncomfortable in other forms of GM advice, or even some games that have very specific procedures for GM side play, or discussions about what a GM is doing...

The last 15 years or so we've seen - following recognition that the processes of play are at least as important as the rules and that the GM role is therefore at least as important as the rules - attempts to formally encode the processes of play with the idea that if you could somehow encode the GM's role into the rules sufficiently, you couldn't actually have a bad game that followed the rules and that all bad play would in some sense result from breaking the rules or failing to understand the rules.

This is about as naive in my opinion as the fetishization of realism we saw in the 80's through the early 90's where so many designers acted like all table problems were the result of rules that weren't realistic enough, and that if you just had realistic enough rules then the game would just work. For one thing, rigidly encoding the processes of play to produce that one game means that the game probably isn't going to have the flexibility it needs for long form stories unless the GM is consciously or unconsciously ignoring processes of play.

Nonetheless, this fad hasn't quite run its course yet so we are still seeing people argue as if stated intentions of the rules are encoded into the rules then by golly that's what the game does, unlike those archaic other games that don't code their stated intentions into the rules and so don't do that.

But what I've increasingly found uncomfortable and is what prompted this discussion is that as the designers start to realize that the encoding the processes of play is neither as straightforward as claimed nor fixing as much is as claimed, the designers are increasingly turning to patching everything with illusionism. I've seen this idea coming from everything from old school CoC, to Indy gaming, to OSR. Everywhere I go these days everyone is preaching Illusionism as the solution to every question about how to make a game work. It is to fiction what "Rulings over Rules" or "No rule is a bad rule because the GM can just change them" is to mechanics. System not working? Just apply more Illusionism! Players aren't having fun? Just apply more Illusionism! Adventure isn't written badly? Apply more illusionism. Patch everything on the fly. And while on one level this does fit into my idea of being a skillful GM in that a skillful GM ought to not be hidebound and should have a big toolbox, I'm really uncomfortable with offering up loads of Illusionism and Fudging as the solution to every problem or as an excuse for poorly written content.

Illusionism run rampant is obviously bad for the integrity of the game, but deployed sparingly, with regard for the temptation it offers, and with an eye toward mitigating its effects on both your players and play, is both a tool and a necessary component of the GM's craft.

If you read my essay on railroading, I don't actually say that the techniques are bad techniques. I say rather that they have to be employed sparingly or artfully, with do consideration of the fact that you are sacrificing player agency and you better have a really good reason to do that and further that if you do it too much, then you go from being someone who is using railroading techniques to someone who is running a railroad.

This is I hope a bit more of a quantitative and artistic approach to the topic than the usually binary good/bad qualitative discussion you normally see.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
The last 15 years or so we've seen - following recognition that the processes of play are at least as important as the rules and that the GM role is therefore at least as important as the rules - attempts to formally encode the processes of play with the idea that if you could somehow encode the GM's role into the rules sufficiently, you couldn't actually have a bad game that followed the rules and that all bad play would in some sense result from breaking the rules or failing to understand the rules.

This is about as naive in my opinion as the fetishization of realism we saw in the 80's through the early 90's where so many designers acted like all table problems were the result of rules that weren't realistic enough, and that if you just had realistic enough rules then the game would just work. For one thing, rigidly encoding the processes of play to produce that one game means that the game probably isn't going to have the flexibility it needs for long form stories unless the GM is consciously or unconsciously ignoring processes of play.

What games are you speaking about here?

Nonetheless, this fad hasn't quite run its course yet so we are still seeing people argue as if stated intentions of the rules are encoded into the rules then by golly that's what the game does, unlike those archaic other games that don't code their stated intentions into the rules and so don't do that.

What would you say is a drawback of a rules book being explicit about the processes of play? I would generally expect clarity to be a positive quality of any bit of technical writing, so I'd be interested in hearing how it would be a negative.

Also, calling folks naive and describing their preferences as a fad, while trying to hide behind a + thread seems a bit low, I'd say. It's perfectly fine if you want to redefine illusionism so that it includes games that you don't like, but I'd think you could do so without the need to insult anyone who does like those games and who disagrees with your premise.

But what I've increasingly found uncomfortable and is what prompted this discussion is that as the designers start to realize that the encoding the processes of play is neither as straightforward as claimed nor fixing as much is as claimed, the designers are increasingly turning to patching everything with illusionism.

What games do you have in mind that fail in these ways? How did you learn of these shortcomings? What are some examples that support your statements here?
 

Celebrim

Legend
What games are you speaking about here?

LOL.

I said: "I've seen this idea coming from everything from old school CoC, to Indy gaming, to OSR." But you feel the need to ask questions that could be answered from the text if you cared to have them answered.

What would you say is a drawback of a rules book being explicit about the processes of play?

I didn't say I think it is necessarily wrong to be explicit about the process of play. I said that there was a trade off between clearly describing the game you intended the audience of your rules to play, and giving freedom to the players to develop procedures that suited different sorts of situation. But again, you are asking questions that have their own answers within the text. I wrote:

"...rigidly encoding the processes of play to produce that one game means that the game probably isn't going to have the flexibility it needs for long form stories unless the GM is consciously or unconsciously ignoring processes of play."

I could elaborate on that, but the fact you are pointedly ignoring what I actually wrote is not anything new. Maybe cool off and listen to what I actually wrote rather than trying to play gotcha with me.

Also, calling folks naive and describing their preferences as a fad, while trying to hide behind a + thread seems a bit low, I'd say.

I defined (+) in the thread as not intended to limit discussion on the merits of illusionism, only to short cut a thread crapping by people who refused to admit that illusionism exists. The original post makes it clear that if you want to develop an argument about how great Illusionism is, I won't feel hurt about. However, to know that you'd actually have to read what I wrote.

It's perfectly fine if you want to redefine illusionism so that it includes games that you don't like...

I have neither IMO redefined Illusionism, nor defined it as a feature exclusive to "games that I don't like". To the extent that you actually think I have redefined Illusionism and want to quibble with my definition feel free, but that doesn't seem to be your intention here. I have defined "Illusionism" as a feature of all RPGs, but you are here willfully misinterpreting me and lying about what I have said.

and who disagrees with your premise.

Feel free to disagree with my premise, but you aren't actually doing that. You are just stalking me and thread crapping.

What are some examples that support your statements here?

I've got a whole thread full of comments, but quite clearly you aren't interested in my statements. But don't worry, if I get the time I'll do a textual analysis of a popular game system free from the well poisoning you are trying to do here. But that will be a topic for another thread.
 



Celebrim

Legend
He says old school CoC, and given that this is apparently a 'new fad' from 'the last 15 years or so' I find that baffling.

I revisited CoC a few years back with the intention of running the game as a long running campaign rather than just the one shots/single adventures that I had previously ran before. I did some planning and some theory crafting, and then I went to a prominent CoC focused website to ask for advice. I was rather surprised and disappointed that the sum of the advice I was given was to just rely on Illusionism to solve all the problems I had with the system and the structure of longer campaigns. This struck me as generally inferior to the sort of complex and nuanced advice I was getting from Seth Skorkowsky (for example) and also really strange given that I would have associated CoC with more Old School/Trad RPing.

I concede that its possible that CoC has always had a large number of GMs that rely heavily on Illusionism in their process of play, but (unlike Dungeons and Dragons) I don't have a lot of older experience with CoC with a variety of tables so I can't really confirm or deny.

What I did note is that this "Just Use Illusionism" answer corresponded to the answers I was reading in prominent "How to GM" books, and in a wide variety of new game systems, and even more jarringly from prominent Youtubers in the OSR community. While the term and the technique are well known and old, I do feel it's fair to say that they are becoming more accepted and mainstream.
 
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As I have said, a great fix for this version definition of Illusionisim, is to simply not give the players any choices. No choices and the DM can't "invalidate them".

Take the Ye Old Example of a tunnel that branches in two directions: one goes to monster A and one leads to an escape. The answer here is easy: "The SINGLE tunnel goes along for another five hundred feet, before it opens into a large cave....."
 

soviet

Hero
I revisited CoC a few years back with the intention of running the game as a long running campaign rather than just the one shots/single adventures that I had previously ran before. I did some planning and some theory crafting, and then I went to a prominent CoC focused to ask for advice. I was rather surprised and disappointed that the sum of the advice I was given was to just rely on Illusionism to solve all the problems I had with the system and the structure of longer campaigns. This struck me as generally inferior to the sort of complex and nuanced advice I was getting from Seth Skorkowsky (for example) and also really strange given that I would have associated CoC with more Old School/Trad RPing.

I concede that its possible that CoC has always had a large number of GMs that rely heavily on Illusionism in their process of play, but (unlike Dungeons and Dragons) I don't have a lot of older experience with CoC with a variety of tables so I can't really confirm or deny.

What I did note is that this "Just Use Illusionism" answer corresponded to the answers I was reading in prominent "How to GM" books, and in a wide variety of new game systems, and even more jarringly from prominent Youtubers in the OSR community. While the term and the technique are well known and old, I do feel it's fair to say that they are becoming more accepted and mainstream.
OK, thanks for clarifying.

My perception is certainly that over the last 15 years illusionism has declined in the hobby, from being largely the default of mist GMing advice to being actively discouraged or even prevented by newer storygame influenced RPGs. I don't know about YouTubers or the OSR community, but in terms of the new published game systems, which ones are advocating illusionism?
 

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