D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[gban007]

So no published settings should ever feature any sort of bigotry or other -ism of a similar sort, from anyone towards anyone else, no matter the circumstance? Is that where we are?

I think it is more no published setting should echo real life bigotry when portraying it, don't fall back on known racist rhetoric from history, but use it's own - say Elves don't like Dwarves because of what the dwarves have done (cutting down trees, mining too greedily), but don't describe the Dwarves using caricatures that echo human cultures / races, or use historical racist dialogue when describing it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Is that what you've taken away from everything I've said on the subject?

I've always gathered that you'd prefer that sort of content not be present at all. You've explained your reasons, and they make a lot of sense, but I think there's room for a lot of different settings, and I don't feel every polity or species need to treat each other nicely in all of them.

Now, I do agree that language can be cleaned up and be less reminiscent of racist dogma, but it seems like it should be possible to take that edge off without scrubbing the idea of potential prejudice out entirely, because sadly there are a lot of terrible things in the real world, and removing them altogether from all published products feels disingenuous.

Now, If you were just talking about the core, and you were cool with published settings still sometimes operating under these deeply unfair but often narratively relevant and useful systems, then I am on board. But your arguments about how there are other ways to get a similar narrative read to me like you want the old narrative, not just the old language, to disappear from gaming and never be seen again. If I am misunderstanding you, I apologize.

 

[Faolyn]

But you have to understand the fundamental problem here.

A complete and utter refusal to accept that any trope that one happens to like could possibly be racist.

That’s why this conversation goes around and around in circles. There is a complete and total refusal to accept the basic issue that you or I have here.

We simply are no longer speaking the same language.

What I really wonder though is don’t people get tired of being wrong? Does anyone think that twenty years from now, people will say, “Hey, remember when DnD had gender based stat restrictions? We should do that again.” Or “Remember when the art was sexist and misogynistic? Let’s bring that back.” Or “Remember when we used Jim Crow era languages in the game? We really should bring that back.”

Don’t you get tired of being on the wrong side of history?

And the thing is, it's not even all that terrible to like this old stuff. I enjoy a few Lovecraft stories as well as his universe as a whole. I mean, they're getting a bit tiresome because they've been done to death, but still. But I'm well aware that he was super racist, even for his time, and on those occasions when I've had to describe his writing to someone who didn't know about them, I always mention his racism. I enjoy old comics, even if the casual sexism and racism makes me roll my eyes in annoyance. Likewise, I can enjoy reading old gaming books and stealing ideas from them without ever wanting to see another chain mail bikini.

But that was then and this is now. If someone tried to write a Mythos-verse story or Golden/Silver Age comic today and included the same sort of bigotry I wouldn't want to read it at all--nor would I want to spend money on a game that relegated women to the job of cheesecake.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I've always gathered that you'd prefer that sort of content not be present at all. You've explained your reasons, and they make a lot of sense, but I think there's room for a lot of different settings, and I don't feel every polity or species need to treat each other nicely in all of them.

Now, I do agree that language can be cleaned up and be less reminiscent of racist dogma, but it seems like it should be possible to take that edge off without scrubbing the idea of potential prejudice out entirely, because sadly there are a lot of terrible things in the real world, and removing them altogether from all published products feels disingenuous.

Now, If you were just talking about the core, and you were cool with published settings still sometimes operating under these deeply unfair but often narratively relevant and useful systems, then I am on board. But your arguments about how there are other ways to get a similar narrative read to me like you want the old narrative, not just the old language, to disappear from gaming and never be seen again. If I am misunderstanding you, I apologize.

I feel like this just completely ignores her post on slavery.

And the thing is, it's not even all that terrible to like this old stuff. I enjoy a few Lovecraft stories as well as his universe as a whole. I mean, they're getting a bit tiresome because they've been done to death, but still. But I'm well aware that he was super racist, even for his time, and on those occasions when I've had to describe his writing to someone who didn't know about them, I always mention his racism. I enjoy old comics, even if the casual sexism and racism makes me roll my eyes in annoyance. Likewise, I can enjoy reading old gaming books and stealing ideas from them without ever wanting to see another chain mail bikini.

But that was then and this is now. If someone tried to write a Mythos-verse story or Golden/Silver Age comic today and included the same sort of bigotry I wouldn't want to read it at all--nor would I want to spend money on a game that relegated women to the job of cheesecake.

Yeah, it is very different to enjoy something from the past that has these things versus trying to continue including them in the present.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I feel like this just completely ignores her post on slavery.



Yeah, it is very different to enjoy something from the past that has these things versus trying to continue including them in the present.

I hope that continues to be true. Seems less and less ok to like problematic things nowadays.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I hope that continues to be true. Seems less and less ok to like problematic things nowadays.

Nah, it just seems less and less okay to make problematic things now.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I feel like this just completely ignores her post on slavery.

Fair enough. Spire is not a game I'm familiar with, to be honest. Is it much like D&D?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Nah, it just seems less and less okay to make problematic things now.

And the pool of things that are considered problematic also seems to getting bigger and bigger.

 

[Incenjucar]

The original Dragon Ball series is one of the more influential pieces of art by anyone currently alive. It spawned entire careers and shaped genres across the world.

It also featured lewd scenes involving very, very young kids, in some cases also involving a very, very old lecherous man. This is no longer done in the series, and that's a very good thing.

Art does not always need to retain its worst choices.

 

[Belen]

But that was then and this is now. If someone tried to write a Mythos-verse story or Golden/Silver Age comic today and included the same sort of bigotry I wouldn't want to read it at all--nor would I want to spend money on a game that relegated women to the job of cheesecake.

The definition changes daily/weekly/monthly at times. I am not certain I ever heard of half-elves as a potentially racist trope before the recent news articles and that was only because a designer decided that something was problematic.

Honestly, I have not really been on the ENWorld since my son was born 11 years ago. I have been shocked at the changes in the community. It is a really different mindset. Gamers seem to be a lot different, if you measure the discussions here although I would bet that those who do not follow boards and discussions have not changed as much.