D&D (2024) Dear Team WotC: Better Pact Magic Fixes

[Mirrorrorrim]

How big of an alpha strike/hail-mary does this give them? Below is the how your math translates out over the life of the class, using fireball as a basis of comparison, though other spells may be way cooler.
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Level 1: 3 1st-level Pact spells per day.
Level 2: 6 1st-level Pact spells.
Levels 3-4: 6 spells upcast to 2nd-level.
Levels 5-6: 6 spells upcast to 3rd-level. That's 6 8d6 Fireballs
Levels 7-8: 6 spells upcast to 4th-level. That's 6 9d6 Fireballs, or better 4th level spells.
Levels 9-10: 6 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 6 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 11-16: 9 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 9 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 17-20: 12 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 12 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.

But what if it wasn't 3x. What if we spread it out? Keeping in mind Warlocks still get Pact Boons, Invocations, and Patron Spells

Levels 1-2: 2 1st-level Pact spells per day.
Levels 3-4: 3 spells upcast to 2nd-level.
Levels 5-6: 4 spells upcast to 3rd-level. That's 4 8d6 Fireballs
Levels 7-8: 5 spells upcast to 4th-level. That's 5 9d6 Fireballs, or better 4th level spells.
Levels 9-10: 6 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 6 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 11-12: 7 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 7 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 13-14: 8 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 8 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 15-16: 9 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 9 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 17-18: 10 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 10 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 19-20: 11 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 11 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.

 

[OB1]

I'm thinking the issue is with half-caster progression in general, rather than the application of it to Warlocks. What if all half-casters worked this way.

Full caster spell slot progression, except the max slots per spell level is capped at 2 and you never get slots above 5th.

Warlocks then get the ability to replenish their two highest slots once or twice per day on a short rest.
Mystic Arcanum works the same way as in the playtest.

So at 10th level, you get 10 total slots (2 for each spell level up to 5), and if you choose, you add Mystic Arcanums for high level magic. You can also recharge your 2 5th level slots once or twice a day (or a 5th and a 4th, or whatever depending on when you choose to use your recharge and how many short rests you get.

 

[MarkB]

What if we combine the playtest half-casting with some Pact Magic?

Warlocks get their half-caster progression for spell levels and spell slots. In addition, they gain a number of Pact Slots per day equal to their proficiency bonus. These slots can be used to cast any spell the warlock has prepared, and the spell is cast at a level equal to half the warlock's level, rounded up. On a short rest the warlock regains one Pact Slot.

Keep the Mystic Arcanum invocation, but change its wording from being able to cast the spell once per day without expending a slot to being able to cast the spell only by using a Pact Slot, with a proviso that 7th, 8th and 9th level spells can still only be cast once per day.

 

[Reef]

What if we combine the playtest half-casting with some Pact Magic?

Warlocks get their half-caster progression for spell levels and spell slots. In addition, they gain a number of Pact Slots per day equal to their proficiency bonus. These slots can be used to cast any spell the warlock has prepared, and the spell is cast at a level equal to half the warlock's level, rounded up. On a short rest the warlock regains one Pact Slot.

Keep the Mystic Arcanum invocation, but change its wording from being able to cast the spell once per day without expending a slot to being able to cast the spell only by using a Pact Slot, with a proviso that 7th, 8th and 9th level spells can still only be cast once per day.

I can’t comment on this directly (as I think I pretty much proved I’m not qualified to a few posts ago…heh). But I wanted to say the posts like this is why I think all the discussions during this play test are useful. There are all sorts of permutations running all the way from one end to the other, and it’d be very interesting to see them taken for a spin.

Or at least taken for a theoretical spin and bounced around the forum.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm thinking the issue is with half-caster progression in general, rather than the application of it to Warlocks.

I disagree. Paladin spell progression works and no one is saying they are weak. Mostly because they channel their spell slots and paladins are martials with some magic who get to use their magic to enhance their standard capabilities or work as utility. Rangers likewise have spells like Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace that stack with what they can do, making them excellent skill monkeys.

Warlocks with Pact Magic have the spells to cover the high end, and the invocations and probably pact boon to cover their utility. Warlocks with half casting (blech) are all utility. And artificers surprisingly have similar issues.

 

[WanderingMystic]

It really is just a problem that Artificers and now this version of Warlocks have. No amount of subclass abilities or extra class abilities can make up for not getting 3rd level spells until 9th level. If it was 7tj it would be painful but I think do able but 9th is just to little to late

 

[OB1]

I disagree. Paladin spell progression works and no one is saying they are weak. Mostly because they channel their spell slots and paladins are martials with some magic who get to use their magic to enhance their standard capabilities or work as utility. Rangers likewise have spells like Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace that stack with what they can do, making them excellent skill monkeys.

Warlocks with Pact Magic have the spells to cover the high end, and the invocations and probably pact boon to cover their utility. Warlocks with half casting (blech) are all utility. And artificers surprisingly have similar issues.

True, but would it make the Paladin overpowered to have the spell progression I suggested, getting their spell levels a bit earlier but capping the total number of slots to 10? With that and the ability for Warlocks to recharge their highest slots a few times a day, Warlocks keep the high end during long adventuring days, but also get the utility out of the low end on shorter ones.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It really is just a problem that Artificers and now this version of Warlocks have. No amount of subclass abilities or extra class abilities can make up for not getting 3rd level spells until 9th level. If it was 7tj it would be painful but I think do able but 9th is just to little to late

Like I said on... one of these threads... I don't see the appeal of half-casters as if the half-casting isn't basically an afterthought like the ranger, what's being given up and stunting the spell progression to the point that you're casting like you're 13th level at level 20 isn't worth it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

True, but would it make the Paladin overpowered to have the spell progression I suggested, getting their spell levels a bit earlier but capping the total number of slots to 10? With that and the ability for Warlocks to recharge their highest slots a few times a day, Warlocks keep the high end during long adventuring days, but also get the utility out of the low end on shorter ones.

A 10th level paladin right now gets 9 spells, capping at level 3. For a 10th level paladin to be able to do that level of melee damage and bring down capstone spells I think would be OP.

 

[Charlaquin]

Ok, so here is an out there suggestion (and I can already hear the screaming…heh):

If I understand correctly, the game expects most parties to get 2 short rests between long rests. This means a warlock can use their entire allotment of Pact Magic three times between long rests in an ideal situation.

So, how about we leave everything about Pact Magic the exact way it is. However, instead of recharging on a short rest, warlocks get triple the slots and recharge on a long rest.

Right now, a 5th level Warlock gets 2 max level slots, recharge on a short. Instead, they would get 6 max level slots, recharge on a long.

The amount of spells they can cast should be the same, without the warlock being dependent on begging for short rests, so it shouldn’t step on any other classes toes. This still means the Warlock needs to watch their resources, but frees them to Nova along with the other characters if needed. And they won’t be hindered if they are in an adventure that makes Short Rests prohibitive. Also, it removes the need to invent new abilities like “Channel Patron” or the like.

Anyway, just spitballing here. But if I’m right, the math works out the same, keeps the Pact Magic flavour, and removes the recharge angst.

I said this in the other thread, but that would be dissatisfying for me, because I would have to manage six spells over a whole adventuring day instead of two spells over an encounter or two. I don’t really like daily resource management, because it’s difficult for me to make good predictions over that time scale. I end up never using my spells because I’m constantly saving them for a theoretical future where I’ll need them more. (Ironic, since that is apparently the exact thing people complain about with current pact magic. Just seems so backwards to me.) With current pact magic, I only have to evaluate if I need to use a spell slot right now. I don’t have to stress about if I’ll need it more later because by then I’ll most likely have rested and gotten them back anyway.