Manbearcat
Legend
Talking about misdiagnosis, I think this one is also very likely fitting that term.
It is true that integrity is critically important to both "camps". It is also true that the means for maintaining that integrity is very different for both "camps". I think you might take a bit to lightly on the grey featureless blob analogy though. As far as I read it it is not a claim that the entire world is a grey featureless blob - it is the claim as I understand it that everything outside what is established trough play appear like a grey featureless blob. I do not see you, nor any of the other experienced narrativist players so far arguing against that view. Rather I have seen many statements that fuels into such an impression.
The strongest counter statement I have seen is that this holds true for traditional D&D as well. Noone is running D&D with a fully fleshed out world, with every details ever to come into play established by the DM before the first session. As such I think the real "diagnosis" here rather might be a question about quantity rather than quality.
In a D&D setting it is enough that one participant is thinking about something on their own to make it make it something "real" in the fiction. This process is extremely more efficient than the process of going trough the procedures required in a narrative game to bring something into the shared fiction. The established shared fiction is having a similar volume, but D&D is having the GM-vision that also make a claim to a level of "reality" in the fiction, which you don't really have in a pure narrative game.
As such, one way of reading it is like on one dimension playing a narrative game feels like standing in an enclosed elevator (at least early on) compared to sitting in a living room. Both are limited, enclosed spaces, but the feel is different. One is having all the space you feel you need, the other is a place you want to get out of as soon as possible.
Unfortunately, I have a hard "nope" to most everything you've written here.
1) I'm not misdiagnosing anything. What I said is 100 % true. Its not an excruciating laboring of every facet of the issues (both discrete and intersecting), but when it comes to "the integrity of the world," it is 100 % true.
2) On this statement:
"it is the claim as I understand it that everything outside what is established trough play appear like a grey featureless blob"
It is burdened with the exact cognitive framing effect that I'm speaking of above to such a degree that it smuggles in a premise for framing that isn't even a thing. When it comes to Narrativist games, there is no grey featureless blob. There is (a) what has been established (through the premise of the game, through character generation, through play), (b) what is onscreen and relevant, (c) what is offscreen and relevant (if the game moves to offscreen and generates relevant content), (d) what is provisional/contingent and not presently relevant, and (e) how the game engine and participants dictate and resolve that.
No one playing these games thinks in terms of "grey featureless blobs." The mere thinking of any aspect of play as "grey featureless blob" is a tell (a tell of Sim/Immersionist priorities manifesting in a framing effect).
3) I ran a 7 year, high resolution metaplot/backstory, full-on Setting Tourism game set in FR from late 2e through 2004 with 3.x; full Sim/Immersionist. Even in that game, with high resolution setting and metaplot, there was an unfathomable swathe of setting that had absolutely nothing to do with our play and almost surely never would. But I didn't think of that "unfathomable amount of setting that will never see play as "a grey featureless blob" or a "colorful, featureful blob." It was irrelevant. It didn't matter so it didn't exist in my mind, my imaginings, etc.
4) I've spent a huge bulk of my hours GMing games running Pawn Stance Dungeon Crawls attached to a homebase Town to sell stuff and derive new delves through free play. The people in the town that don't matter to selling and buying gear, making and repairing gear, or who aren't NPCs who have rumors or need help (or whatever contrivance) aren't grey featureless blobs. The town and its supporting environs that don't house the delves aren't grey featureless blobs. That isn't a framing I would ever think of or be preoccupied by in the running of those games. Wouldn't occur to me. These worlds are imagined. They don't have volition outside of the volition that the participants at the table or the game engine invest them with. It wouldn't occur to me for even a second to think about "grey featureless blobs" of offscreen setting material that isn't relevant to play. The difference between us is that; the cognitive framework you're working under regarding the imagined spaces of games and the framing effect it has for you.
5) On this statement:
"D&D setting it is enough that one participant is thinking about something on their own to make it make it something "real" in the fiction. This process is extremely more efficient than the process of going trough the procedures required in a narrative game to bring something into the shared fiction."
What is more efficient; content generation? What does efficient mean here? What sort of content generation are you speaking about? Who is generating it?
An inanimate object like a lamp or a desk? A piece of essential backstory or myth? The building out and resolution of a weighty conflict-charged scene? I truly don't know what you're meaning here. Table time in generating content (be it inanimate objects or essential backstory/myth) in Narrativist games is both enormously quick and often visceral. In terms of building out and resolving weighty conflict-charged scenes? In terms of both singular events and the frequency of this occurence there_is_absolute_no_comparison. One game type is built to generate these at frequency, at scale, at pace. The other doesn't (as a feature of those particular games because the pace is meant to be more breezy, featuring conflict-neutral freeplay where PCs spend a lot of time carousing with each other or with NPCs or exploring a locale without a goal-directed level of intensity).
So I'm not sure what you're meaning here. Stocking a dungeon in Moldvay Basic with lamps and desks and traps takes little time. Same for improvving such things in Narrativist games or even Sim/Immersionist games. Procedurally generating an NPC Reaction in Moldvay Basic takes no time. Writing out an Instinct for an NPC in Stonetop takes no time. Coming up for a huge elaborate and layered scheme for an NPC Protagonist As Antagonist, laying breadcrumbs so PCs pursue this stuff, lassoing them back in when they don't bite or go off course? That takes a lot of time...that takes a hell of a lot of effort.
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