D&D 5E World Building: Army building

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
World Building Question 2 Army building

So I asked for general DM advise, because hello I am new to Dming. However I would like to start a series of specific posts asking about different parts of world building. This isn't a plus thread per say, but if you think I should not world build that is not very helpful.
Also Warning, I ramble when I am excited even in text.


(if you want to see part 1 https://www.enworld.org/threads/world-building-commerce-and-gold.698360/)

Okay, so wind up to question 2: Soldiers and War

When your games involve wars and kingdoms forces how do you build them?

I have seen DMs build full PCs like fighters Rangers Wizards ect. And then fill them out after that with NPC stats from the MM. I have also seen DMs just take monster or NPC stats.

My personal thought is based on something I found here online. Take the NPC or Monster stats and add 1 or 2 class like features.

However I then worry when is too much too much? Like if I take guards and knights and other NPC stats and add human or elf or dwarf to them, then give them action surge and second wind that sounds like a cool "champion" or "commander" but I would not want a legion of 100 of those (tracking those action surges would be a nightmare).

Then because for my world I am using a lot of Divine magic I started to think about spell slots. I wonder if there is a good way to limit those.

As I am typing this I wonder how much can be hand waved. Like I can call an army of paladins an army of paladins the players don't need to know if they have smite or lay on hands unless they are part of an encounter, and at least at low level those encounters need to be small or it will TPK.

Then I am wondering, do I just story point who wins if I have 2 NPC armies fight, or should I 'roll it out' in between games to be able to tell the players it was 'fair'

I also have seen many times here and elsewhere online that enough commoners can take down a dragon. How much do I need to worry about army sizes?

If I want to throw numbers around as intelligence about 1 feudal lord or another what are sane numbers? Like if someone owns 3 towns and 2 castle/keeps and a bunch of farm land and the DM told me they can field 200,000 troops I would be highly skeptical, but if they have 20,000 is that too much? What about 10,000?

How does caster change this? Like If 1 lord can field 5,000 spear men and 2,000 archers with 500 light cavalry and a dozen siege weapons, but there enemy can bring 400 spear men, 100 archers, 50 light cavalry and 60 level 5+ wizards and 100 level 3-4 wizards and that side has 30 clerics/healers it seems like the casters are a major force multiplier.

Also monsters. Like if one side has ogres and the other side has goblins that skews things too.
There's a lot here to touch on and there's just no one right way for everyone. I haven't had an occasion to worry about armies fighting since I started running 5e, but if I were to do so in the future, I'd use BECMI's The War Machine rules updated for 5e. It assigns a force rating to an army (or divisions of an army) and abstracts things so you can roll an outcome rather than using miniatures or rolling out combat conventionally with large numbers of individuals.

Unfortunately, I can't find the converted rules on the web, but I do have the rules and an accompanying Excel sheet that I can up load.
 

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I would love to hear some examples [of demographicsp just to give some insight

There are demographics and there are demographics. How many can be soldiers vs farmers/craftsmen/etc? Rome in the 100s could field 1 soldier per 200 total people. (380k soldiers in a population under 76M) This is in part due to the climate, part to the engineering projects and lastly to their accumulated skill & knowledge. Move to a different climate, have fewer functional aquaducts, or lose knowledge to plagues/wars and that many troops can't be fed. By the same token, Rome had a lot of very skilled crafters who made a lot of chain mail. So much that no one is sure how they made all of it. But if they couldn't make all of it, they wouldn't have had as effective troops.

So that's a direct way demographics (and climate and history) affects things conventionally. (Links below for Rome numbers)

Now let's think PC classes. How many of the population are special? If 1% are PCs, Rome would have had 760k PCs. How many are 20th level? How many are 1st?

Some use a binary distribution (i.e. 1 20th, 2 19th, 4 18th......500k 1st) which means that with 12 classes they generally stop at a single 15th level character and 32k 1st level characters.

Change to a linear distrubution (1x 20th.....20x 1st) and now there are 300 20th level characters of every class and 6,000 1st level of every class.

I doubt either is right for your game but only you can decide.  

 


Clint_L

Hero
We tried to combine a DnD campaign with a Warhammer fantasy battle campaign back in the 90s. It didn’t work very well.

And when I was a teen we tried to use our followers to do a battle using the Chainmail rules but that also did not go well. So I have no good advice except that you’re probably better homebrewing something simple.
 

But many of them do so because of the influence of Tolkien, a juggernaut of world-building, because they know much of the joy of reading the Legendarium is that it is so thought-out and, if not "complete," then at least very comprehensive.
Tolkien is a prime example of someone who created a world just for the fun of it, with details that no one else would ever see or understand, and he dedicated many years of his life to the hobby but died before completing his world (of course, because worlds are infinite).

Which is fine. But it's completely unnecessary for a game of D&D.
 

I assume the players will make characters for inside the world I build? I have never really tried to leave the world we are playing in.
If your world is a pseudo-medieval setting, remember that most people at that time rarely travelled more than a few miles from their place of birth*, and without mass communication and education knew little of the wider world. So, if you are designing a world for the purpose of playing D&D it's best to focus on a small location, no bigger than a county, and go into a high level of detail. Who are the important local personages? What crops are growing in the fields?

The rest of the map can say "here be dragons" until the PCs explore it.


*Historical note: people travelled further during the so called "dark ages". The development of feudalism tended to tie people down.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I put together an attack bonus/AC system based on the old BECMI game for armies, it's abstract and it works well enough that one if my players used it in a game he was running. Basically, don't worry too much about the stats of the individual members of each army, abstract it so that a force of a 1000 orcs attacking a human stronghold with 500 soldiers can be run with a few die rolls. If you want the PCs involved, then create targets if opportunity, take out that group of ogres and the allies have advantage on the attack roll (in this system there was a single roll which was the good guys vs the AC if the bad guys). This works well because you don't have to, and probably shouldn't want to due to the sheer number of troops, keep track of individual stats.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Tolkien is a prime example of someone who created a world just for the fun of it, with details that no one else would ever see or understand, and he dedicated many years of his life to the hobby but died before completing his world (of course, because worlds are infinite).

Which is fine. But it's completely unnecessary for a game of D&D.
And yet, you and I are able to talk about it because we did see and, to one degree or another, understand it. Which was my point.

That "bay leaf" analogy really does a lot of work here. Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions put it quite well in her "Planet of Hats" video:

"Showing us a fantasy or sci-fi culture in terms of the big differences between it and the familiar culture we presumably started in can be an incredibly useful tool to put us into the head of the main character, who's going to be looking at this alien culture with a buttload of preconceived notions and received homogeneity. But, unfortunately, this only really works okay if the culture you write actually has more depth than just what the main character sees at first glance. You don't even have to elaborate it in-story if you don't want to or it wouldn't fit. You just have to world-build it behind the scenes to make sure it actually holds together."

Again, I am NOT saying that it is impossible to go overboard. It totally is. It's totally possible to do a whole bunch of truly pointless filigree just because the author finds it enjoyable to do so. What I am saying is that a lot of genuinely BAD writing comes from failing to do enough "behind the scenes" world-building for things to make sense. Exclusively making loose sketches and papering over inconsistencies every time they crop up leads to things that make no sense or have ridiculous, unbelievable "solutions." Problems creep in that could have been nipped in the bud with just a little bit of world-building first.

So don't go to either extreme. Don't treat world-building as a self-indulgent exercise that never produces anything worthwhile to anyone but the DM. And yet also, don't treat world-building as this absolute requirement down to the finest details because you really will be mostly doing it for yourself.

World-building is NOT "completely unnecessary for a game of D&D." But some of the things people do for worldbuilding are unnecessary. Find the right balance point between the extremes of deficiency and excess--a balance point which will vary from one game to the next. For example, part of the reason I've done as much sociocultural and economic world-building as I have in Jewel of the Desert is that I have a physical anthropologist player. They're constantly asking questions about things you're deriding as "completely unnecessary." Food, building materials, etiquette rules, linguistic quirks, ceremonies and beliefs, clothing (that's a big one, because the player's character comes from a family of tailors), you name it, sociocultural stuff gets discussed on the regular. Meanwhile, someone like the OP, whose expertise is business, would likely ask questions about economics, trade, financing, resources, etc. A player with a medical career will think about medical concerns. Etc.

World-building is, and always will be, in part a matter of taste. Find the right balance point between "how does this even make sense? It's the biggest city in the world with NO FOOD!" and "why did you write three whole novels about it if nothing in those novels is ever relevant to us?" That will depend on you, your players, and the nature of the game you're playing (a beer-and-pretzels West Marches game probably won't need as much world-building as, say, a game where the DM has sutured together D&D 4e and a politics-focused PbtA system.) It's neither utterly essential nor "completely unnecessary."

Edit: Additional response.
If your world is a pseudo-medieval setting, remember that most people at that time rarely travelled more than a few miles from their place of birth*, and without mass communication and education knew little of the wider world. So, if you are designing a world for the purpose of playing D&D it's best to focus on a small location, no bigger than a county, and go into a high level of detail. Who are the important local personages? What crops are growing in the fields?

The rest of the map can say "here be dragons" until the PCs explore it.


*Historical note: people travelled further during the so called "dark ages". The development of feudalism tended to tie people down.
People travelled more than you give credit. Many, many relatively ordinary folk went off to the Crusades, remember, and pilgrimage was something many tried to do as much as they possibly could. Yes, travel the way we travel now was not really a thing. But to characterize it as the vast majority of people never going more than a few miles form their place of birth? Inaccurate at best and outright wrong at worst. It's not like Roman farmers didn't tend to stay tied to the land they farmed.

That said, I don't disagree with your approach--so long as it really well and truly is the case that there's absolutely nothing of interest beyond the nation's borders. The problem is, I don't think that's true!

Instead, I think it best to treat it like rings. The innermost ring is the main settlements of the local area, the proverbial "starting town" as it were, or any place the party sets up as "home base." Such places will be interacted with frequently and often to a pretty deep degree, so they require more flesh on the bones. The second ring is the surrounding environs of those places, the wilderness and trade routes that the party will travel through frequently but not necessarily spend too much time in. Those require attention too, but not as much detail. Third, for lack of a better term, the "local periphery": nearby cities they might visit now and then, neighboring countries or city-states, etc. Such areas are close enough that their influence is likely to be felt, there will be trade and contribution, but it doesn't need too much. Fourth, the distant lands, close enough that you know that they exist but leaving them shrouded in rumor and mystery. And then, finally, you have the Outer Reaches, which is both lands known only through myth and rumor (which may or may not be true), and the genuine Beyond The Horizon stuff that, whether it exists or not, is too far away to have any influence on the story yet.

One might name them such:
1: Local
2: Regional
3: Peripheral
4: Far, Far Away
5: Terra Incognita

Apportion appropriate world-building to each. Local is your top priority, the details matter there. Regional, details might matter, so it's usually good to be prepared, and stay flexible. Peripheral will matter some of the time, but you probably don't need a ton of depth--just make sure it passes a smell test. Far, Far Away is distant enough that you can keep it vague and probably not have any problems. Anything further than that, don't bother--if it comes up, you'll have the freedom to do as you like and patch up any gaps later.
 
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overgeeked

B/X Known World
I put together an attack bonus/AC system based on the old BECMI game for armies, it's abstract and it works well enough that one if my players used it in a game he was running. Basically, don't worry too much about the stats of the individual members of each army, abstract it so that a force of a 1000 orcs attacking a human stronghold with 500 soldiers can be run with a few die rolls. If you want the PCs involved, then create targets if opportunity, take out that group of ogres and the allies have advantage on the attack roll (in this system there was a single roll which was the good guys vs the AC if the bad guys). This works well because you don't have to, and probably shouldn't want to due to the sheer number of troops, keep track of individual stats.
If you want to get really into it, you can use standard 5E combat. Just change the number of characters a single stat block represents. Use the largest common denominator for one side and match the other to that. You have 500 soldiers and 1000 orcs? Okay, so that’s 1 soldier stat block representing 500 soldiers vs 2 orc stat blocks representing 500 orcs each. Divide the total number of NPCs the stat blocks represent by the total number of HP they have. For each HP of damage, that’s how many soldiers drop.

If you really want PCs involved in warfare, then including the PCs should be done as side quests and Seal Team Six style missions and heavy use of skill challenges. Take and hold this chokepoint. Rescue this important NPC who was captured. Bring these reinforcements to this location by this time. Etc.
 

And yet, you and I are able to talk about it because we did see and, to one degree or another, understand it. Which was my point.
Despite efforts to compile scraps of random notes, there is an awful lot we have never seen because it was only ever in his head, and I'm certain that without a linguistics degree I do not understand the intricacies of the various elvish languages.

I would say that for anyone who is not a brilliant Oxford professor with time on their hands and a passion for world building for it's own sake, Tolkien is not someone you should try and emulate.
That "bay leaf" analogy really does a lot of work here.
Not all cooking needs bay leaf. You can make wonderful food without it.

You know who sold a lot more books than Tolkien? Agatha Christie. And you know how she worked? She started with the solution to the crime, then worked backwards, only creating characters and locations as the plot required them. If something wasn't needed she didn't spend time creating it.
 

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