D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Paladin ... Divine Smite is a Spell now

[Clint_L]

I'm still not convinced it does. The wording of the spell seems to strongly indicate the damage is part of the same attack, and therefore doubling of damage dice on a crit would still apply.

As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power.
The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack.

However, as a bonus action and a spell, you're limited to one Divine Smite per turn. Our current campaign, the paladin, who often is hasted, frequently gets two or three smites in on their turn. That's the real nerf, and I'm fine with it.

Hmmm...you might be right, but that creates a very unusual action economy. Do we have any other instances of a bonus action/spell that is declared after the action but takes place as part of the action?

 

[Stalker0]

Hmmm...you might be right, but that creates a very unusual action economy. Do we have any other instances of a bonus action/spell that is declared after the action but takes place as part of the action?

Well I mean the fact that this is a bonus action but it acts like a reaction…the whole mechanic is already strange

 

[Sir Brennen]

Hmmm...you might be right, but that creates a very unusual action economy. Do we have any other instances of a bonus action/spell that is declared after the action but takes place as part of the action?

Not that I can think of. There are spells like booming blade and green flame blade where you cast the spell as part of the attack, and that's a bit unusual, but not quite the same.

It might be better to do something like give Divine Smite a duration of "a minute or until discharged", and have its effects apply (discharge) on a successful attack. Keep it as a bonus action, and it will just be something the paladin does first in a round, rather than after an attack, without weirding up the action economy.

And the extra damage would still get doubled on a crit, but smiting would no longer be a choice in response to a crit.

 

[Yaarel]

Disagree. All spells should be in the spell design space. They follow the rules for spells, and should be in the chapter that includes the rules for spells. That is the only logical place to look them up. It wasn't a problem for the 2014 Vicious Mockery to be in the Spell chapter when only the Bard could use it. It won't be a problem in 2024.

Rules for spells include being appropriate for the slot that each is in.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Rules for spells include being appropriate for the slot that each is in.

You are talking about designer-level design, which is the designers' best judgement of power that delivers the intent of the spell at the appropriate class level. If a spell is class-exclusive, it only needs to be weighed on its own merit for how it is used and at what level for that class. At the most extreme, it can be compared to other spells available to that class at that level. One could say spell-effectiveness is subjective anyway.

For instance, I am fine with the Warlock Pact Cantrips even though they are generally more powerful than other generic cantrips. It doesn't matter to compare to other cantrips becase only the Warlock will be getting it for free, only they will be using it, so only their effectiveness while using it matters.

 

[Yaarel]

You are talking about designer-level design, which is the designers' best judgement of power that delivers the intent of the spell at the appropriate class level. If a spell is class-exclusive, it only needs to be weighed on its own merit for how it is used and at what level for that class. At the most extreme, it can be compared to other spells available to that class at that level. One could say spell-effectiveness is subjective anyway.

For instance, I am fine with the Warlock Pact Cantrips even though they are generally more powerful than other generic cantrips. It doesn't matter to compare to other cantrips becase only the Warlock will be getting it for free, only they will be using it, so only their effectiveness while using it matters.

3e fell apart, partly because of such spell slot convolutions whose entanglements became impossible to balance.

The spell list must be crystal clear about how much design space each slot level is worth.

Every spell must be written to conform to the power of its slot.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

3e fell apart, partly because of such spell level convolutions whose entanglements became impossible to balance.

The spell list must be crystal clear about how much design space each slot level is worth.

Every spell must be written to conform to the power of its slot.

That is all subjective, though. Spells do all kinds of things. Acid Arrow, Augury, Alter Self, Branding Smite, Continual Flame, and Shatter are all 2nd level spells. Not everyone is going to agree that they are all worth taking for their 2nd level spell slot.

What actually matters is what they do for the classes that use them at the level they are used at. Not a white-room comparison with other spells cast by other characters.

 

[Yaarel]

That is all subjective, though. Spells do all kinds of things. Acid Arrow, Augury, Alter Self, Branding Smite, Continual Flame, and Shatter are all 2nd level spells. Not everyone is going to agree that they are all worth taking for their 2nd level spell slot.

What actually matters is what they do for the classes that use them at the level they are used at. Not a white-room comparison with other spells cast by other characters.

There are enough optimizers to establish a consensus, especially in the aggregate.

It is clear which spells are underpowered and which spells are overpowered.

The overpowered spells are actually rare. 5e 2014 did a good job at removing them from earlier editions. There are still a few tho.

 

[Maxperson]

So, the big change is Divine Smite has been codified as an actual Paladin Spell. This opens up some fun, like using charging up Rings of Spell Storing with Smites. It also eliminates the additional ruling about how you can't cast a spell (especially a Smite spell) and use Divine Smite together in a much cleaner way. It also is now a target for counterspell, so that can be ... fun? I'm a Blue Mage, I cackled at that. Also Arcane Trickster Rogues can steal it for themselves.

This is one of my least favorite changes. I really liked that the spells could be cast after a hit. It finally made them good to use. However, spells aren't the smite that I know and love. They're an extra little bit of gravy.

 

[mellored]

This is one of my least favorite changes. I really liked that the spells could be cast after a hit. It finally made them good to use. However, spells aren't the smite that I know and love. They're an extra little bit of gravy.

It's litterally the same damage, using the same resource.

It's just a bonus action now.