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D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Spells

Chaosmancer

Legend
Here, "Necromancy" is the "darkside" of astral thought and ethereal spirit, relating to the Negative Void rather than the Positive Energy. It is mainly a category to represent the reallife thematic tropes of "necromancy" and "black magic", and is intentionally multischool for a specific genre.

If you find it annoying to separate out Necromancy in this thematic way, I am fine with just making: Conjuration be "Astral Plane with Celestial, Fiend, and Aberration", and Dunomancy be "Ethereal Plane with Fey and Shadow".

But for the sake of organizing popular themes, it can be worthwhile to silo the darkside themes into Necromancy, similar to how Warlock is a go-to for darkside magic themes − generally with effects done by dangerous and evil spirits.

I do find it annoying, because it ignores thematics within the game. Necromancy is often associated with necrotic damage, and spells like chill touch or Toll of the Dead. If you make it the "evil darkside of magic" then what do you do with the Spore Druid who deals necrotic damage and makes a zombie servant? Are they automatically evil and dark, associated with fiends and aberrations from beyond the stars?

I don't think so. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I don't want ANY morality to be in the magic, because it is hard to justify it. Even Enchantment which I strongly feel has many negative thematics... also has spells like Zone of Truth, Bless, and Hold Person which I cannot say are evil spells.

Even saying something like "the void is evil" ignores other conceptions of the universe and morality. The Void in Shinto religions is not a force of evil. So why enforce that upon the game?

Dunomancy is the stuff of ethereal forces, including gravity and telekinesis, and including the spirit world of the Fey (and Shadow).

Divination is space-time, including seeing across space and time during precognition, traveling across space during teleportation, and traveling across time during time travel or other chronomancy effects.

Yes, the Dunomancy such as gravitational force and the Divination such as space-time are separate areas of specialization because the storytelling tropes are so different from each other. If you want a mage with a more scientific flavor, who understands how both fundamentally interrelate, then choose spells from both the Dunomancy and Divination schools.

Depends on the story-telling. Most stories that feature prophecies and precognition often don't involve gravity manipulation. Those that involve telekinesis... actually often involve precognition and telepathy, all as the same power. I've even seen psychic teleportation.

So, it matters deeply which stories you are trying to emulate, because reading people's minds, looking into the future, and throwing people around or setting them on fire can all be the exact same power source in the right sort of fiction.

Illusion is often made out transient ether, namely a construct of "force" and "magical energy", that behaves virtually as if matter but isnt actually matter. Compare the holodeck of Star Trek. However some illusions involve the alteration of reality itself, a blurriness between subjective reality and objective reality, and result in real matter and actual reality. The concept of manifesting illusion is distinctive enough in stories, and distinctive enough mechanically as statting the objects themselves, to merit its own school specialization. Consider, most stories about mages who create illusions (force constructs) dont necessarily have them be able to fly (dunomancy telekinesis and gravity). They are different themes.

It also depends on how you are creating the illusions, ie, are you manipulating light or perception. But more importantly, the point was that Fey are well known for illusions, and Dunomacny was ethereal... but then illusion was ethereal matter. Giving manipulated light a physicality can even be gravity magic.

But then again, you are correct, illusions are often seen as distinct and make sense as a field of study.

I think this is largely just a failure of the idea of making specific sections of cosmology specific types of magic. It simply doesn't work. The Feywild can be full of a dozen different types of magic, so trying to narrow it to one specialization doesn't work.

Elemental Planes can easily have Evocation responsible for Earth effects as well as the rest of the elements Air, Water, and Fire. However, so far in D&D, earth effects are consistently Transmutation. I can see the logic of linking Transmutation with Earth, Plant, Beast, thus aspects of the Material Plane generally. In this context, Plant and Beast are creatures made out of solid matter. I have made peace with how D&D separates the Earth Element from the other three "energy" Elements.

You can make peace with it, but that doesn't mean it isn't without flaw. There is logic both ways.

Most magic weapons are Divination in the sense of being "lucky". But some magic weapons might be Dunomancy relating to telekinetic aim or whatever. Really any school of magic can have its own rationale for why a weapon is more accurate and deals more damage. It depends on the flavor of the magic.

Consider weaponlike spells: Elemental Weapon is Evocation inflicting elemental energy damage, Magic Weapon is Divination being lucky.

Spiritual Weapon is tricky, some aspects are Illusion in the sense of a quasi-real force construct, but it actually deals Force damage and doesnt behave like an actual weapon would. Mainly the Force damage makes it a force effect of Dunomancy. If the quasi-real object dealt weapon damage (Pierce, Slash, Bludgeon), it would be fully an Illusion.

Some spells cover the concept of one school, but the way that the spell description is actually worded makes it belong to an other school. For example, Mage Armor generally the covers the idea of force armor that repels attacks thus would be Dunomancy, but is actually written to be more like a quasi-real Illusion.

There is no way that being lucky allows a weapon to cut what it otherwise cannot cut. That is a function of being a magical item, not a lucky item.

But you are getting to my point, this a all messy and confusing and could go in multiple different directions. The more tightly you try and define "this magic means this" the more you are going to find those edge cases that don't make sense or challenge the entire structure you have built.

DnD's current system being very loosely defined is a strength here, because it largely... doesn't matter.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So you are saying Protection from Elements could not be on all three lists?
Of course it could, but not because of school of magic. School of magic is 100% irrelevant to which list a spell appears on. You've left apples and oranges and gone way out into fruit and asteroids.
It doesn't make sense to have it be a protection spell (abjuration) and elemental spell (evocation) and a spell that alters the person it is cast on (Transmutation)?
No. That doesn't make sense at all. It is not elemental, it's resistance TO elemental. You aren't putting on water/ice to resist fire. It's also not altering the person cast upon one iota. It's not turning the person into something that resists fire. It's 100% abjuration.
You don't think a reasonable argument could be made that the divine version of the spell works differently and on different principles than the Arcane version?
No. This has almost(only saying almost just in case there's a rare corner case I have forgotten) never been the case. Divine and Arcane only tell you where you got the spell, not what school or how it works. Divine Detect Magic is the same as Arcane Detect Magic, except you got it from your god.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
Of course it could, but not because of school of magic. School of magic is 100% irrelevant to which list a spell appears on. You've left apples and oranges and gone way out into fruit and asteroids.

So, that's why I listed the lists. One question answered.

No. That doesn't make sense at all. It is not elemental, it's resistance TO elemental. You aren't putting on water/ice to resist fire. It's also not altering the person cast upon one iota. It's not turning the person into something that resists fire. It's 100% abjuration.

If manipulating fire with say, fire bolt, is evocation, then why is manipulating fire so it doesn't touch you NOT evocation? Where does it say that Protection from elements doesn't summon cold energy to counteract the fire? How do you know it isn't altering the person? It just says they "have resistance", well, Tieflings have fire resistance because of their bodies, why can't Protection from Energy change your skin to mimic tiefling skin?

You are just stating "impossible!" but there is no reason to assume you are correct.

No. This has almost(only saying almost just in case there's a rare corner case I have forgotten) never been the case. Divine and Arcane only tell you where you got the spell, not what school or how it works. Divine Detect Magic is the same as Arcane Detect Magic, except you got it from your god.

Currently, but if you can have multiple schools, why can't the divine version be different? Wouldn't that make more sense that completely different sources of magic would manifest in different ways?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So, that's why I listed the lists. One question answered.
Cool. So now you know that schools have nothing to do with the lists. Glad I could answer that one for you.
If manipulating fire with say, fire bolt, is evocation, then why is manipulating fire so it doesn't touch you NOT evocation? Where does it say that Protection from elements doesn't summon cold energy to counteract the fire? How do you know it isn't altering the person? It just says they "have resistance", well, Tieflings have fire resistance because of their bodies, why can't Protection from Energy change your skin to mimic tiefling skin?
Why doesn't it do those things? For the same reason longswords don't detonate a nuclear strike whenever you swing one. RAW doesn't say that it does.

Read the spell. It summons no elements to counteract the fire, so it doesn't. Read the spell. It doesn't say it alters the target, so it doesn't. It simply wards, because that's what it says that it does.

You are free to homebrew these changes into the spell so that it turns you into a tiefling or summons cold energy, but by RAW it does not do those things.

For an example of a transmutation spell that gives resistances, look at Shapechange. That spell turns you into a creature and you gain the resistances that it has.
You are just stating "impossible!" but there is no reason to assume you are correct.
It's not an assumption. It's a fact. In fact the spell does none of the things you are inventing above. It only wards. I'll quote you the spell so you can see what RAW says it does.

PROTECTION FROM ENERGY
3rd-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

For the duration, the willing creature you touch has resistance to one damage type of your choice: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder.

That's all that it does. No transformations mentioned. No elemental energies used.

Currently, but if you can have multiple schools, why can't the divine version be different? Wouldn't that make more sense that completely different sources of magic would manifest in different ways?
That would be a great homebrew and it while I don't think it would make more or less sense, it would be a cool change from what we have. I really doubt WotC would ever do that, though. They're moving towards making everything samey, not away from it. That's why we get divine smite as a spell when there was nothing wrong with leaving it alone and just limiting it to once per round.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
I do find it annoying, because it ignores thematics within the game. Necromancy is often associated with necrotic damage, and spells like chill touch or Toll of the Dead. If you make it the "evil darkside of magic" then what do you do with the Spore Druid who deals necrotic damage and makes a zombie servant? Are they automatically evil and dark, associated with fiends and aberrations from beyond the stars?
The word "necrotic" is a medical term that means the cells are dying, such as gangrene.

When an Undead inflicts Necrotic damage, it means the targets are starting to become corpses, literally rotting.

Deathliness is darkside. When the Spore Druid deals Necrotic damage and especially when using fungus to animate a zombie, the concept flirts with the darkside. This is Negativity influencing the natural world. The absence of Positive Energy.

I don't want ANY morality to be in the magic, because it is hard to justify it. Even Enchantment which I strongly feel has many negative thematics... also has spells like Zone of Truth, Bless, and Hold Person which I cannot say are evil spells.
It isnt about alignment, because Good characters can wield the powers of death and demons for Good purposes. Compare the Warlock.

At the same time, the themes are about death and demons. Namely, darkside flavor.

Enchantment can be taboo in some cultures because it violates free will. In Norse culture, warriors avoided manipulating the minds of opponents because it seemed unfair and a cowardly way to avoid a fight. The stories still describe warriors doing it, however. Even Thor resorts to mind manipulation on occasion.

Even saying something like "the void is evil" ignores other conceptions of the universe and morality. The Void in Shinto religions is not a force of evil. So why enforce that upon the game?
The Negative Void itself is strictly neutral, and serves a Good purpose by making creation possible. The Negativity is what allows finite things to be possible. Without the Negativity demarcating boundaries where something isnt, everything would be indistinguishable infinity.

That said, the absence of Positivity is bleak nihilation, like a black hole.

Heh. If you want blood and guts and death and corpses. Face it. This is darkside stuff. But not necessarily Evil.

Depends on the story-telling. Most stories that feature prophecies and precognition often don't involve gravity manipulation. Those that involve telekinesis... actually often involve precognition and telepathy, all as the same power. I've even seen psychic teleportation.
Yeah. The folklore stories feature seers who foresee the future without flying around.

However, modern stories often have the telekinetic be precognitive as well. This is because the reallife scientific investigations of the "paranormal", tended to group the experiments that involved these claims together. The scientific terminology is new, but the what they describe is ancient, including "extra sensory perception" (Norse spá), "remote viewing" (Norse hamfarir), etcetera. "Telekinesis" (moving by spirit) and "Teleportation" are known in Jewish literature, where Teleportation (Hebrew kafats) is described in a way similar to a modern wormhole, that pulls two points in space together.

A modern theme "psionic" psychic character, would choose spells from the Dunomancy and Divination schools.

So, it matters deeply which stories you are trying to emulate, because reading people's minds, looking into the future, and throwing people around or setting them on fire can all be the exact same power source in the right sort of fiction.
Yes, it matters which stories a player is drawing inspiration from. That is why it helps to organize the spells in a thematically salient way. Then the player can find the relevant spells more easily.

It also depends on how you are creating the illusions, ie, are you manipulating light or perception. But more importantly, the point was that Fey are well known for illusions, and Dunomacny was ethereal... but then illusion was ethereal matter. Giving manipulated light a physicality can even be gravity magic.
I distinguish between "objective" illusions that are quasi-real, versus "subjective" phantasms that are strictly mental sensory manipulation.

The objective illusions use force subtly to manipulate light and sound, or force with increasing strength for odor and solid touch, even fully virtual to support weight and so on. However, illusions have a mental affectation that ultimately can blur the lines between subjective imagination and objective reality, whence actually real scenarios with enduring mass and so on.

Yes, many Fey creatures are known for Illusion and Enchantment, as well as being immaterial Fey spirits. They are originally known for personifying and manipulating fate, namely Divination. A player who wants one or more of these narrative themes, selects the appropriate spell school.

But then again, you are correct, illusions are often seen as distinct and make sense as a field of study.
Illusions are like art. One can describe the chemical properties of pigments, but that isnt really what the artist is doing with pigments. The artist is doing art. It is its own discipline, even its own mode of consciousness.

There is no way that being lucky allows a weapon to cut what it otherwise cannot cut. That is a function of being a magical item, not a lucky item.
There are stories where something breaks because of being struck "just right". Whence luck. The imagery reminds me of cutting diamonds.

But you are getting to my point, this a all messy and confusing and could go in multiple different directions. The more tightly you try and define "this magic means this" the more you are going to find those edge cases that don't make sense or challenge the entire structure you have built.

DnD's current system being very loosely defined is a strength here, because it largely... doesn't matter.
Organizing schools in a helpful and consistent way, matters.

Solid and salient organization helps in every aspect of D&D, just like in reallife.


Most spells are unambiguous and inflexible and belong to an obvious school.

Some spells are complex with moving parts that belong to more than one school.

Some schools depend on organizational decisions. For example, I intentionally make Divination include both precognition and teleportation. Conceptually they are inseparable because seeing remotely, being remotely present, and manifesting there via teleportation are related in principle. For example, one sends ones mind there, then once there, pulls the rest of body there. But the main reason for insisting on the link is for the purpose of the game: precognition is too passive (and boring), and teleportation is too much of a one-trick-pony (and boring). But together, they form a remarkably rich, powerful, diverse, and interesting spell list.

Transmutation combining the themes of Earth, Plant, and Beast, is arbitrary. But it can make sense, such as when creating objects from any or all of these. But the main reason for all three is, D&D has always done Transmutation this way, and this trio is one of the few things that is consistent about the Transmutation school.


The spell categories that I describe come from the bottom up.

I look at every spell that officially exists in D&D, especially 5e, but also earlier editions.

Every single spell that exists, fits well enough in one of these schools with these specific definitions.


The gist of these schools are solid, stable, and fun. I have been using them in my games for some years now. I continue to tinker with the school descriptions and the placement of a few specific spells. It proves useful.
 


Horwath

Legend
As mentioned, something like MtG color system would work better

Red magic, Elemental magic, mostly damaging spells, damage types; Acid, Cold, Fire, Thunder, Lightning, dragon/elemental summoning
Yellow magic, Healing magic, resurrection, Radiant damage, celestial summoning
Purple magic, necromancy, animating dead, Necrotic damage, draining effects, undead/demon summoning
Green magic, matter manipulation, poison damage, transmutation, Poison damage, animal/plant summoning
Blue magic, primal, dispelling, counterspelling, gear basic enchantments, construct summoning, Force damage,
Orange magic, Mind, Enchantment, Fear, illusions, Psychic damage, aberration/fey summoning,
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
As mentioned, something like MtG color system would work better

Red magic, Elemental magic, mostly damaging spells, damage types; Acid, Cold, Fire, Thunder, Lightning, dragon/elemental summoning
Yellow magic, Healing magic, resurrection, Radiant damage, celestial summoning
Purple magic, necromancy, animating dead, Necrotic damage, draining effects, undead/demon summoning
Green magic, matter manipulation, poison damage, transmutation, Poison damage, animal/plant summoning
Blue magic, primal, dispelling, counterspelling, gear basic enchantments, construct summoning, Force damage,
Orange magic, Mind, Enchantment, Fear, illusions, Psychic damage, aberration/fey summoning,
Bleh. No offense, but yuck.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Cool. So now you know that schools have nothing to do with the lists. Glad I could answer that one for you.

You were the one confused and demanding answers, I didn't need any help. I knew exactly what I wrote and why I wrote it that way.

Why doesn't it do those things? For the same reason longswords don't detonate a nuclear strike whenever you swing one. RAW doesn't say that it does.

Read the spell. It summons no elements to counteract the fire, so it doesn't. Read the spell. It doesn't say it alters the target, so it doesn't. It simply wards, because that's what it says that it does.

You are free to homebrew these changes into the spell so that it turns you into a tiefling or summons cold energy, but by RAW it does not do those things.

For an example of a transmutation spell that gives resistances, look at Shapechange. That spell turns you into a creature and you gain the resistances that it has.

It's not an assumption. It's a fact. In fact the spell does none of the things you are inventing above. It only wards. I'll quote you the spell so you can see what RAW says it does.

PROTECTION FROM ENERGY
3rd-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

For the duration, the willing creature you touch has resistance to one damage type of your choice: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder.

That's all that it does. No transformations mentioned. No elemental energies used.

No use of the word "ward" either, so you are making things up as much as I am, by your own definition. It just "has resistance". How does it have that resistance? It doesn't say. And sure, right now it says abjuration school, but if you are making it multiple schools why can't it be abjuration evocation or abjuration transmutation to tell how it is doing these things? Heck, Absorb Elements is also Abjuration and it's resistance it directly called out as capturing the elemental energy, so there is even precedence. Unless you want to say that capturing, storing, and unleashing elemental energy is also purely abjuration with no other school.

I mean, you do realize you are trying to argue that RAW supports your homebrew idea? Multiple schools isn't RAW. So if you only want to discuss RAW, then enchantment isn't the only school that can deal mind damage, breaking the idea that Enchantment is the mind damage school.

So which is it? Are we discussing homebrewing to allow multiple schools? Or are we discussing strict RAW where deciding that a spell that deals with elemental power being of the elemental school is equivalent to swords creating nuclear explosions when swung?

That would be a great homebrew and it while I don't think it would make more or less sense, it would be a cool change from what we have. I really doubt WotC would ever do that, though. They're moving towards making everything samey, not away from it. That's why we get divine smite as a spell when there was nothing wrong with leaving it alone and just limiting it to once per round.

But we were discussing your homebrew, so why does it matter what WoTC would do? Can you only homebrew if that homebrew is created by Jeremy Crawford and stamped with "Official 5e Rules"?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Man, I'm updating my player's Cleric to UA6 and level 7, and there's only eight level 4 spells to choose from, and most of them are hot garbage. Sadly, I don't think Banishment really suits him.

Yeah, 4th level spells are a horrible spot for Clerics, and I don't know why.

I ended up altering the list, as well as putting in some extra's from Kibblestasty, who does some good things. Mostly, without having to dig out the homebrew spells, I gave them access to Stoneskin (they have stone shape, so why not), Raulothim's Psychic Lance (the ability to call out the name and deal psychic damage felt very Inquisitorial to me, so it made for good imagery of "REPENT!") and Summon Construct (mostly based on the idea of Hebrew Golems and other sacred, statue defenders)

If you are interested in the two homebrew spells, I can either post them or send you DMs. Of course, this is all "with DM permission". Though, officially, Tasha's gave Clerics access to Aura of Vitality, Aura of Life and Aura of Purity, which may also work for you
 

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